Why the hell don't we have a [Mad Men] thread? (past season SPOILERS)

ElJeffe

So. Mad Men. It's that awesome show featuring this guy:



...and this guy:



...and this guy:



...where they're all pretty much terrible people all the time. Especially that first guy, what an asshole, except he is so awesome you love him anyway.

There are also this gal:



...and this gal:



...who are also awesome and usually not terrible people, except when they are.

Mad Men is currently on season 6, airing Sundays on AMC, and the first four seasons of it are streaming on Netflix. If you haven't watched it, go watch it, because it is totes great, even though you generally want to punch all of the men in the sack because they are such fucking assholes.


Spoiler rules: Spoiler anything from this season. Stuff from prior seasons is fair game.

ElJeffe

From last night:

That was the best episode in awhile, just because so much stuff actually happened. If I were Peggy, I would probably by hunting Don down so I could run him over in the new fancy mystery Chevy. If I were Joan, I would probably do the same, but for different reasons.

Best moment last night: Peter randomly falling down the stairs. Any time something bad happens to Peter it is the best thing.

y2jake215

It is shameful we didn't previously have a mad men thread. It's a SHAMEFUL SHAMEFUL DAY

The Ender

...Can someone explain the appeal of this show to me?

I tried watching it a few times after being told OH MY GOSH IT IS SOOO AWESOME, and yeah. 'Watch these horrible people at this horrible agency do horrible things. Entertainment!' I guess doesn't do it for me.

Do the characters ever become likeable? When does the show give me a reason to care, if ever?

ElJeffe

As with a lot of these kinds of shows, it took me half a season to really get into it. It's never a fast-paced show, and plot lines generally grow and resolve verrrrrrrry slooooooooowly. But the characters are all very rich and complex, especially Don. When you start to see his formative years, and understand exactly why he is who he is, he becomes fairly sympathetic, even as you're going, "Oh, you fucking dick."

But yeah, a lot of the show is watching bad people fuck over even worse people. There are genuinely good characters, most of them women and side characters. Peggy is great, and watching her grow from meek secretary to successful creative type is great. Joan is awesome and her story is really moving, because she deals with so much shit and still manages to kick ass. A lot of the secondary characters are pretty likable as well, like Cosgrove.

Peter Campbell will always be Conner from Angel. He is a smarmy little prick who thinks he's awesome and usually isn't, but the show does a good job of illustrating why they keep him around. He's an asset, just an obnoxious one. It's always fun watching him get taken down, which he does quite often.

y2jake215

ElJeffe wrote: »

From last night:

That was the best episode in awhile, just because so much stuff actually happened. If I were Peggy, I would probably by hunting Don down so I could run him over in the new fancy mystery Chevy. If I were Joan, I would probably do the same, but for different reasons.

Best moment last night: Peter randomly falling down the stairs. Any time something bad happens to Peter it is the best thing.

i liked everyone actively hating Don, since he's been pretty despicable for quite a while. Even Ted was like, this is why everyone hates you. Also you can find out what car the Chevy ends up being - it's interesting (though I guess a little bit of a spoiler?)

The Ender

ElJeffe wrote: »

As with a lot of these kinds of shows, it took me half a season to really get into it. It's never a fast-paced show, and plot lines generally grow and resolve verrrrrrrry slooooooooowly. But the characters are all very rich and complex, especially Don. When you start to see his formative years, and understand exactly why he is who he is, he becomes fairly sympathetic, even as you're going, "Oh, you fucking dick."

But yeah, a lot of the show is watching bad people fuck over even worse people. There are genuinely good characters, most of them women and side characters. Peggy is great, and watching her grow from meek secretary to successful creative type is great. Joan is awesome and her story is really moving, because she deals with so much shit and still manages to kick ass. A lot of the secondary characters are pretty likable as well, like Cosgrove.

Peter Campbell will always be Conner from Angel. He is a smarmy little prick who thinks he's awesome and usually isn't, but the show does a good job of illustrating why they keep him around. He's an asset, just an obnoxious one. It's always fun watching him get taken down, which he does quite often.

How does Don's past make him sympathetic?

I mean, from what I have gathered so far, he basically murdered the real Don Draper in the Korean war, stole his identity, received honors he didn't deserve and then goes on to become an extremely wealthy socialite in New York City.

How am I supposed to sympathize with that? 'Oh yeah. I can totally understand why you are a cartoonish, racist, drunken psychopath, because ????'

I mean, the episodes I watched weren't even fun in a watch these guys one-up each other sort of way.


Maybe I've been spoiled by Parks & Rec and/or Community.

Mike Danger

God, last night was so good.

Roger Sterling swooping in almost outta nowhere. "And I have this check for ten thousand dollars because I close, Pete! I close things."

That said,

I think this season is going to end with everything blowing up in everyone's faces. Peggy's back under Don's thumb and her relationship seems to be on the rocks, Pete's marriage is dead in the water, there seemed to be a big divide among the partners about the IPO (I can see Joan cashing in and leaving as soon as that happens after the shit Don pulled), that hot new Chevy (spoiler tags?)

might turn out to be the Vega

, and I don't fucking trust Bob Benson.

Only Mad Men could make me excited about a damn corporate merger.

ElJeffe

The Ender wrote: »

ElJeffe wrote: »

As with a lot of these kinds of shows, it took me half a season to really get into it. It's never a fast-paced show, and plot lines generally grow and resolve verrrrrrrry slooooooooowly. But the characters are all very rich and complex, especially Don. When you start to see his formative years, and understand exactly why he is who he is, he becomes fairly sympathetic, even as you're going, "Oh, you fucking dick."

But yeah, a lot of the show is watching bad people fuck over even worse people. There are genuinely good characters, most of them women and side characters. Peggy is great, and watching her grow from meek secretary to successful creative type is great. Joan is awesome and her story is really moving, because she deals with so much shit and still manages to kick ass. A lot of the secondary characters are pretty likable as well, like Cosgrove.

Peter Campbell will always be Conner from Angel. He is a smarmy little prick who thinks he's awesome and usually isn't, but the show does a good job of illustrating why they keep him around. He's an asset, just an obnoxious one. It's always fun watching him get taken down, which he does quite often.

How does Don's past make him sympathetic?

I mean, from what I have gathered so far, he basically murdered the real Don Draper in the Korean war, stole his identity, received honors he didn't deserve and then goes on to become an extremely wealthy socialite in New York City.

How am I supposed to sympathize with that? 'Oh yeah. I can totally understand why you are a cartoonish, racist, drunken psychopath, because ????'

I mean, the episodes I watched weren't even fun in a watch these guys one-up each other sort of way.


Maybe I've been spoiled by Parks & Rec and/or Community.

Re: Don's past

He didn't murder the real Don Draper. The real Don Draper died in the war, and Our Don chose to take his identity because he was so ashamed of his own. His father was a legitimately awful person and the show does a good job of establishing how Don's shitty childhood turned him into the misogynistic compulsive success-at-any-cost man he is today. He's basically spent his entire adulthood trying to be the exact opposite of who he was as a child. The success is a denial of his poverty. The sophistication is a denial of the bumpkin his father was. The misogyny is partly the result of the horrible treatment of women he grew up with, but also partly just the status quo of the era. (The show does a good job of portraying the effortless misogyny and racism that were standard during the period.)

But - and BIG REAL SPOILER regarding Don's past - Don has also tried to do some real good. After he stole Real Draper's identity, he came clean to Real Draper's wife and wound up supporting her financially and becoming a genuine friend to her. This became readily apparent when Real Draper's Wife was dying of cancer. That right there is what cements Don as a good person deep down, because he was legitimately kind and selfless at that time. And the way Don's wife treated him after she found out his secret kind of validated (to him, at least) his decision to keep his secret at any cost. But anyway, his relationship with Real Draper's wife was probably the only genuine and healthy relationship he's ever had with a woman, and every aspect of his character has been colored by that woman and those experiences.

Draper is a great tragic character who, at times, really wants to be a good person. I think he was trying to do that with Megan. He was trying to start over. And he failed. He even told his current mistress that he doesn't want to keep seeing her. And he doesn't. He wants to be a good man. He just really sucks at it.

A lot of the appeal of the show, for me, is not just rooting for Don to succeed - because it's fun watching him be the smartest guy in the room - but rooting for him to be the good man that he, deep down, legitimately wants to be.

Variable

I feel like there's an awful lot of shows you could simply call 'bad people doing bad things'

if you can't see what compels the characters in the show, pay better attention.

ElJeffe

y2jake215 wrote: »

ElJeffe wrote: »

From last night:

That was the best episode in awhile, just because so much stuff actually happened. If I were Peggy, I would probably by hunting Don down so I could run him over in the new fancy mystery Chevy. If I were Joan, I would probably do the same, but for different reasons.

Best moment last night: Peter randomly falling down the stairs. Any time something bad happens to Peter it is the best thing.

i liked everyone actively hating Don, since he's been pretty despicable for quite a while. Even Ted was like, this is why everyone hates you. Also you can find out what car the Chevy ends up being - it's interesting (though I guess a little bit of a spoiler?)

Here's a really cool article making a probably-accurate prediction. Possible spoilers as to the identity of the Mystery Car, but mostly speculation, since even if it's correct the show could go in a number of ways.

Speculation regarding the above guess:

So if this is true, will the show portray it as a major coup for the company, since the Vega was initially successful? Or will it be a trainwreck? I'm predicting it starts as a positive for the company, they're riding high, they put all their eggs in the Chevy basket, and then disaster occurs.

The Ender

@ElJeffe, Re: Don

It sounded to me like he murdered Draper, given that he describes the gasoline explosion as an 'accident' that he caused, then going on to steal his dog tags. He seemed like a n unreliable narrator (Hell, let's face it, he just straight-up is an unreliable narrator) regarding that story.

What episode(s) are involved in the story with Draper's wife? I'll try watching those and see if it improves my outlook. I want to like this show, but it just hasn't worked for me so far.

ElJeffe

The Ender wrote: »

@ElJeffe, Re: Don

It sounded to me like he murdered Draper, given that he describes the gasoline explosion as an 'accident' that he caused, then going on to steal his dog tags. He seemed like a n unreliable narrator (Hell, let's face it, he just straight-up is an unreliable narrator) regarding that story.

What episode(s) are involved in the story with Draper's wife? I'll try watching those and see if it improves my outlook. I want to like this show, but it just hasn't worked for me so far.

Real Draper's widow, Anna, first shows up in episode 10 or 11 of season 2. The cancer arc starts in episode 2 or 3 of season 4, and continues throughout much of that season.

Also, here's the Wikipedia entry re: his time in the war:

During an enemy artillery attack, Lt. Draper was killed by a gasoline explosion accidentally caused by Whitman, charring his body beyond recognition. Seeing this, Whitman removed Lt. Draper's dog tags, switching them with his own. He later awakens in a hospital, presumed to be Draper, and is awarded the Purple Heart. He is then sent home with Lt. Draper's coffin (now believed to be Whitman's) to offer the Army's regrets to Whitman's survivors. He avoids meeting the Whitmans at the train station, but is spotted by Adam, whose protests are not believed by his parents. Whitman makes his escape and begins his life as Don Draper.

Our Don was culpable, but he didn't kill anyone on purpose. Mostly he was just kind of a fuck-up.

That aside, there are lots of little bits that make Don more sympathetic. He pretty much mentors Peggy and gives her the opportunities to succeed (and also comes to help her through a personal crisis or two), he's generally protective of his coworkers, and he has some pretty strong ethics as regards his clients. (Like not dumping a small client for a larger one, even when it could plausibly help his company.)

He's an asshole, but he's not flat-out evil or anything, especially compared to a lot of other characters.

Mike Danger

I didn't realize

Whitman-Don killed Real-Don. I remembered that episode as Real-Don getting hit by an artillery shell?

ElJeffe

I didn't quite remember that either, only that the death wasn't a willful act and that Don took advantage of it. I assume that Wikipedia is not mistaken.

y2jake215

I thought Don dropped his lighter and it blew up some gasoline or something

that was a while back, I don't quite remember

e: Dick-Don, that is. Adds significance to

the whole lighter thing this season

Linespider5

For some reason I keep wanting to like Pete and see him turn into a better person.

The last few seasons have been particularly frustrating on that point.

y2jake215

Linespider5 wrote: »

For some reason I keep wanting to like Pete and see him turn into a better person.

The last few seasons have been particularly frustrating on that point.

same here. I was happy to see

he didn't get real creepy with Joan in the beginning of the episode, at least. baby steps

ratzofftoya

I feel like Pete is all about how a naive oppressor reacts to his initiation into the club of oppressors. You can see that he's not quite up to wearing the big-boy pants when it comes to some of the more distasteful acts that these folks engage in.

The Ender

It would be nice to see someone reverse the trope of, 'Look at this character with his bad haircut. Obviously he is evil!'

y2jake215

The Ender wrote: »

It would be nice to see someone reverse the trope of, 'Look at this character with his bad haircut. Obviously he is evil!'

I don't understand? Pete is neither evil nor has a bad haircut

ElJeffe

Pete's hair this season is pretty terribad. Not so much in past seasons. I wouldn't call him evil, though he's a douchey little weasel who it's easy to root against.

Mike Danger

I kind of thought Pete was on the road to Being a Better Person in some way after last season but I was totally wrong!

y2jake215

This season, yeah, definitely. But the whole trope thing doesn't hold up if he had an identical personality and Don's haircut (which is basically everyone's haircut) for 5 seasons

now he's got the trademark Campbell burns

everyone's facial hair this season is amazing

and GISing Stan just made me remember Sal existed

ElJeffe

Sal was awesome and I miss him.

His exit was so sad.

Linespider5

Dude playing Campbell has been plucking his damn scalp to create a receding hairline for the show. Well, not on his own, but you know what I mean.

Pete isn't evil. He's not a monster. He's just a petty jerk with entitlement issues. Who, sometimes has flashes of honest humanity.

Blackie62

y2jake215 wrote: »

This season, yeah, definitely. But the whole trope thing doesn't hold up if he had an identical personality and Don's haircut (which is basically everyone's haircut) for 5 seasons

now he's got the trademark Campbell burns

everyone's facial hair this season is amazing

and GISing Stan just made me remember Sal existed

Let me just provide counter-argument to your statement with Harry Crane's sideburns. Those are the chops of the fat kid in high school who is too much of a dork to get a girlfriend but styles himself as the ultimate player and dresses himself in such a fashion via the attire of the heyday of Burt Reynolds. I know Harry Crane is supposed to be a perpetual nerd for Weiner to put all his weird childhood geekiness he can't shove onto Glenn into but those sideburns need to go.

Anyway so Roger Sterling, good to know he's still awesome.

Bubby

The Ender wrote: »

...Can someone explain the appeal of this show to me?

I tried watching it a few times after being told OH MY GOSH IT IS SOOO AWESOME, and yeah. 'Watch these horrible people at this horrible agency do horrible things. Entertainment!' I guess doesn't do it for me.

Do the characters ever become likeable? When does the show give me a reason to care, if ever?

Because it's interesting and the best TV tries to be more than just "entertainment", and people in real life are usually not that much better than these people deep down, they just cover it up.

y2jake215 wrote: »

Linespider5 wrote: »

For some reason I keep wanting to like Pete and see him turn into a better person.

The last few seasons have been particularly frustrating on that point.

same here. I was happy to see

he didn't get real creepy with Joan in the beginning of the episode, at least. baby steps

He wanted to get her another drink, and don't say that you or any other single red-blooded male wouldn't have tried the same thing.

moniker

@ElJeffe
http://cdn.uproxx.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/05/pete-cambell-stairs1.gif

y2jake215

Bubby wrote: »

y2jake215 wrote: »

Linespider5 wrote: »

For some reason I keep wanting to like Pete and see him turn into a better person.

The last few seasons have been particularly frustrating on that point.

same here. I was happy to see

he didn't get real creepy with Joan in the beginning of the episode, at least. baby steps

He wanted to get her another drink, and don't say that you or any other single red-blooded male wouldn't have tried the same thing.

he didn't get real creepy

just a LITTLE bit

baby steps!

Linespider5

Ok, so...this week's episode:

I completely missed how Roger got awesome. How did he get from trying to snag Megan's mom into that awkward dinner with Herb to suddenly being in Detroit with Chevy to land the new deal?

I know a lot happens offscreen in this show and we've seen these random turns of fortune happen, so I understand there's a precedent and maybe it's unimportant and was just purposefully left there, but I was still a bit GUH? about the whole thing.

Also:

On second reflection, did Roger arrange the dinner that way on purpose to leave Don stuck with Herb knowing it would blow up like that? Could Roger be quietly playing Don?

Nija

Linespider

Roger's girlfriend is a flight attendant in the first class lounge. The dialogue they have in bed Roger asks her if she is ever going to call him for more than sex, like if a big executive is ever stuck in her first class lounge. Skip to him getting ready to leave for the dinner when his little vixen calls and Roger flies out the door, forgetting to call Don. Roger ends up at the lounge, and his plaything tells him who he is at the airport.

Linespider5

Ah.

Mike Danger

Best Mother's Day episode ever.

Casual Eddy

pete is weirdly enough one of the most progressive characters in some ways but he's still thoroughly unlikeable

where was dawn this episode? laid off?

DiannaoChong

Everyone kept looking for her and couldn't find her. So no idea. Also the episode only took place in 1 day. They packed alot into this episode.

on Joan

The complaints she had, they wouldnt of left her waiting, but her color was probably good so they didnt think her appendix was about to explode and kill her.

I think the theme of the episode of absence?

Everyone felt they had to be in the office, or they would just be first to get fired. some people got fired, some people are about to get fired. But everyone who left knew there were big costs to leaving. Pete only wanted to delay the meeting because someone may literally be on fire. Don left multiple times because fuck everyone. Joan didnt want to leave, because it was a sign of weakness. Dawn was gone, people noticed, people didnt really care that she was gone except it inconvenienced them.

Pete has a good point in his rants, but him ranting is going to make it worse.

Lawndart

I've always seen Pete as Don without the same level of charisma and luck, essentially to remind the audience in a subtle way how horrible a human being Don really is by showing what his actions would look like outside the bubble.

Also, for those who haven't seen it, Business Insider has been comparing Sterling Cooper ad pitches to the actual ads from the era, which makes for an entertaining read even if you disagree with the conclusion they draw.

Mike Danger

I really hope that this episode marks the dawn of the Sterling/Cutler bromance.

Edit: Also, does the guy who plays Chaough remind anyone else of Peter Lorre?

DiannaoChong

Pete through the entire show has constantly been emulating Don(he saw that as the model for what to go for, what to become), trying to become friends with him, etc. Don hasn't taken him under his wing but because Pete is emulating Don's values, Don has done a ton of favors for Pete along the way, and also on the reverse Pete did him favors...

ElJeffe

Lawndart wrote: »

Also, for those who haven't seen it, Business Insider has been comparing Sterling Cooper ad pitches to the actual ads from the era, which makes for an entertaining read even if you disagree with the conclusion they draw.

If you're trying to actually judge the fictional ads against the real ones, I guess maybe they have a point (though I'm not seeing why some of them are supposedly so much better than others). But Mad Men isn't trying to sell products, and their ads aren't made by ad execs. Mad Men is basically using ads as a means of character development. Don is a gifted ad salesman who takes risks and thinks outside the box. His ads necessarily need to be showy or daring much of the time to get this across, even if "showy" and "daring" are not the best ways to sell a product in the real world. And sometimes the show deliberately produces ads that are supposed to be crappy to get across a point. Further, the ads are often developed based on things happening to the characters and are thus designed to be thematically consistent, much like the solutions to cases on House always had something to do with House's character arc.

So as a fun comparison of fake ads versus real ones, it's interesting. If the point is supposed to be "lol Mad Men has shitty ads," I think they're missing the point. Honestly, I can't tell from the article how serious a point they're trying to make, so... yeah.

Robos A Go Go

DiannaoChong wrote: »

Everyone kept looking for her and couldn't find her. So no idea. Also the episode only took place in 1 day. They packed alot into this episode.

on Joan

The complaints she had, they wouldnt of left her waiting, but her color was probably good so they didnt think her appendix was about to explode and kill her.

I think the theme of the episode of absence?

Everyone felt they had to be in the office, or they would just be first to get fired. some people got fired, some people are about to get fired. But everyone who left knew there were big costs to leaving. Pete only wanted to delay the meeting because someone may literally be on fire. Don left multiple times because fuck everyone. Joan didnt want to leave, because it was a sign of weakness. Dawn was gone, people noticed, people didnt really care that she was gone except it inconvenienced them.

Pete has a good point in his rants, but him ranting is going to make it worse.

Man, I didn't even notice that Dawn was gone.

Now I feel like a racist!