Our rules have been updated and given their own forum. Go and look at them! They are nice, and there may be new ones that you didn't know about! Hooray for rules! Hooray for The System! Hooray for Conforming!
Our new Indie Games subforum is now open for business in G&T. Go and check it out, you might land a code for a free game. If you're developing an indie game and want to post about it, follow these directions. If you don't, he'll break your legs! Hahaha! Seriously though.
[Cops Gone Wild] Pepper-sprayed toddlers edition
Mr Ray
Sarcasm sphereRegistered User regular
Sarcasm sphereRegistered User regular
Three NYPD officers have been named in a lawsuit alleging they "needlessly, and without warning pepper-sprayed a mother, father and their three small children," including a 5-month-old baby, in a New York City subway station in August, 2012.
The suit, filed last month by Marilyn Taylor, claims that Officers Maripily Clase, Suranjit Dey and Jermaine Hodge approached Taylor and her family after she used the station's service entrance to push the stroller carrying her 2-year-old child onto the subway platform -- arousing suspicions that she had skipped paying the fare.
According to the complaint filed by Taylor's attorney, and available at Gothamist:
During this stop, the aggressive language and demeanor of the officer defendants caused the Minor Children to become scared and upset. Ms. Taylor responded to her four-year-old daughter's question as to whether she was going to be okay by leaning over to tell her daughter that, "everyone is going to be okay."
At this point, defendant DEY unloaded pepper-spray into Ms. Taylor's face. The spray caused Ms. Taylor to reel backwards, nearly falling off the platform, and to fall to her knees, blinded and in pain. The pepper-spray struck Mr. McClain [Taylor's husband] as well, resulting in pain and discoloration of his left eye.
The Minor Children were also struck by the pepper-spray, causing them to scream and cry in fear and pain, and sending [the two-year-old] into fits of vomiting.
Taylor was then cuffed and detained by the officers, according to the lawsuit, and pushed down the station's stairwell in "an unreasonably forceful manner that caused bruising to Ms. Taylor's wrists and lower back," after which she was taken to Central Booking for her arraignment.
The complaint says that Taylor and McClain have both dealt with eye problems in the months since the incident, and that their children suffered severe psychological trauma. Additionally, the complaint alleges that the officers proceeded to harass and intimidate the family outside the station where the incident occurred in the weeks that followed.
The NYPD didn't immediately respond for comment on the lawsuit.
The police department, which was the subject of heated criticism after an officer famously pepper-sprayed peaceful protesters at Occupy Wall Street in 2011, has also been embroiled of late in a number of other controversies -- in particular, a stop-and-frisk program largely targeting New York's minority populations, and the disputed shooting and killing of 16-year-old Kimani Gray.
huffingtonpost.com/2013/04/02/nypd-pepper-spray-baby_n_3001126.html
Now to be fair, he wasn't aiming for the toddlers, he was aiming for the mother, who was not resisting and was in fact bending over to reassure her 4 year-old that everything was going to be ok. Everything was not ok.
So point of discussion, at what point does the cost of all these lawsuits begin to outweigh the cost of just training officers to be less shitty? Or disciplining them. That's a thing that can theoretically happen! Incidentally I initially misspelled "discussion" and my spellchecker asked me if I meant "depression", which would also have been appropriate.
Mr Ray on
0
Posts
I actually did have a look immediately after posting this and couldn't find anything, so this may or may not in fact be a fabrication until proof surfaces. Note to self: In future check this stuff before posting thread.
*edit* The fact that the 3rd most popular link for this story is infowars has me worried
*edit* This link has their lawyer listed as "David Rankin of Rankin & Taylor, PLLC." so the lawsuit is genuine at least.
http://www.courthousenews.com/2013/04/01/56239.htm
Don't get me wrong, them having made the whole thing up is probably the best possible outcome, but at this point there's no hard evidence. I'm not an detective, internet or otherwise and will leave this one to the courts.
He lives on as cheezburger grease in our hearts.
Fire those amateur fucks and sue them for every penny possible.
Unmotivate - Updated May 17th - "Let's Complain About Nintendo"
The PA Forumer 'Lets Play' Archive - Updated March 25th, 2013
It is possible to train officers to a higher standard, or at least a high enough standard that they know firing pepper spray in the general direction of kids is a fucking stupid thing to do. The NYPD just has a horrible culture, you wouldn't see this shit happening where I live, you don't even see it happening in the rest of the US. This is something I would find hard to believe of Sheriff Inbred The 3rd in Bumblefuck, Texas let alone officers in one of the largest, most populated and wealthiest cities on earth.
I mean, the pepper spray hit a 5 month old baby for christs sakes, it's pretty much only by the grace of god this incident didn't result in the headline "NYPD MURDERS NEWBORN".
He lives on as cheezburger grease in our hearts.
Um.
Unmotivate - Updated May 17th - "Let's Complain About Nintendo"
The PA Forumer 'Lets Play' Archive - Updated March 25th, 2013
Well, put it this way, we've just had a few weeks of the Boston PD getting hero worshiped for their professionalism. Can you imagine the same manhunt taking place in NYC?
There are certainly parts of the US where the police meet the standards expected of first world police services and parts that don't. The only difference is the training and the culture of the forces in general, and like I said the NYPD have a lousy culture.
He lives on as cheezburger grease in our hearts.
After 9/11 there was a ton of hero worship for the NYPD, and rightfully so. They were heroes then. Doesn't mean they don't do shitty things too.
Honestly, maybe one good use for Google Glass could be having police wear them at all times, so we'd always have a video and audio record of their actions.
"There are no necessary evils in government. Its evils exist only in its abuses. If it would confine itself to equal protection, and, as Heaven does its rains, shower its favors alike on the high and the low, the rich and the poor, it would be an unqualified blessing." -- Andrew Jackson
Pepper spray makes everything more delicious
Out of interest, what is your background in knowledge of use of force in police scenarios?
What if I told you that there was a police force in a major US City so widely regarded as corrupt that when a 6-3 300lb black guy started killing cops, the outrage was...tepid at most.
That when hunting for this black man, in a blue Toyota pick-up, they shot 2 Hispanic women in a gray Nissan pickup. And a white guy in a truck on his way to go surfing.
That's not really what he said. He said you never use it around children, and I would be honestly surprised if that was the case.
You're also working off the idea that they were compliant, which we don't at this point have any way to ascertain outside there word. Though on that, surely an area of that nature on the underground would be covered in CCTV? Seems like there would have been a pretty black and white way to check this right from the off.
I don't think what he said suggests the need for knowledge of force in police scenarios. It is practical knowledge about aerosols combined with the "I'm not going to be a dick to innocent people using a device that can potentially harm them" knowledge. It's an almost natural moral right to expect children to not be put in the line of danger by those sworn to "serve and protect" them.
Quick google search brings up this for the LAPD regarding policy
130.25 REVERENCE FOR HUMAN LIFE. Reverence for human life is the primary consideration in developing tactics and strategies in pursuit of our motto: "To Protect and To Serve." Whenever an operation designed to achieve an immediate goal such as the arrest of a felon or the gathering of evidence to complete a criminal investigation causes a victim, witness, or other innocent person to be subjected to potential injury or death, our primary objective must be to protect that person. No arrest, conviction, or piece of evidence can outweigh the value of human life.
and later
576. DEPLOYMENT IN ANTICIPATION OF THE COMMISSION OF A CRIME. The purpose of deploying officers at the scene of an anticipated crime is to arrest the perpetrator of the attempted or consummated crime; however, since that objective is subordinate to the protection of life, officers should not subject themselves or other innocent persons to unreasonable risks.
Maybe we don't need to nitpick stupid crap.
Maybe I'm an idealist.
They are there to enforce the authority of the government. Arresting criminals is a secondary concern, protecting law abiding citizens is a tertiary concern, and our courts have established that the police have no legal obligation to protect anyone in any case.
So yeah.
Police officers are in it to collect a paycheck, just like the rest if us.
#FreeScheck
#FreeSKFM
the problem with police is the lack of repercussion when they fuck up. It's less dangerous to be a cop in a major city than a delivery driver to some parts, so we need to as a nation stop acting like they're heroes on the front lines.
Edit: basically the problem is, once again, the public being retarded and by and large hero worshiping cops
I cannot imagine being a cop anywhere.
I know that "ITS COMING RIGHT FOR US!" type justifications don't fly. Or shouldn't. The story as presented is that the family was standing together, a child was being reassured of something, and the assault by the officer was made on the family. Please explain to me the provocation. Because it seems that, if the mother was wrong to use the service entrance, calm words of warning would have been enough.
Unmotivate - Updated May 17th - "Let's Complain About Nintendo"
The PA Forumer 'Lets Play' Archive - Updated March 25th, 2013
I'm not trying to be all down on cops, but they shouldn't be put on a pedestal either.
Reminds me of this ex-cops take on law enforcement (spoilered cause it's slightly off topic)
Much like every pro-legalization enthusiast, he suffers from verbal vomit.
The above guideline about "others before arresting" is a funny one, as the guidelines regarding high speed pursuit dont apply to this in most cases. That and the supreme court has said that officers have no requirement to protect, or to help someone in danger.
The only video that ever needs to get linked in these threads (and it should be in the OP every time) is the 45 minute one where the layer speaks, and repeats over and over "dont talk to police, eeeeeeeeeeevvvvvvvvvveeeeeeeeeeerrrrrr", and then hands it over to a current detective who goes "he's right, and I can tell you this, because criminals are idiots and wont listen anyways"
edit: in direct relation to the case, I'd excuse myself until we have more information, like the police report or literally anything else. I seriously doubt the story went "STOP! POLICE!"->scared child->mother bend over->peppersprayed
Taylor et al v. The City of New York et al
They're not punished for breaking the law like the rest of us.
WTF?
Basically the police aren't liable if crimes are committed, even if they are called and notified.
It makes sense, in that the police can't be everywhere immediately, and if they were liable for crimes / damages everywhere they couldn't be, or couldn't get to in time, it would be impossible for them to do their job.
The original case was one where some intruders had broken into a house and captured some of the homeowners. Other people in the house called the police, who drove by / knocked on the door but didn't stop the crime - I think something about how it was reported as a suspected burglary instead of burglary / kidnapping type situation.
EDIT - It doesn't mean a cop can walk away from a crime, or let a crime happen...although if - for example, they are calling for backup - they wouldn't be liable for the harm their inaction caused. Until a special relationship (promise / action to act w/ knowledge that injury can result, direct contact between police and the individual, and justified reliance that the police will follow through) exists, the police have no obligation to any particular individual.
Right, the story as presented by the person filing the suit was that, and if that was the case some form of persuade, advise, and warn seems a good course of action.
Except they might not be entirely 100% on the up and up telling the truth. Lets run with another possible hypothetical scenario. Instead of minding their own business and suddenly out of the blue getting pepper sprayed after a brief chat, the brief chat establishes their name and address/identifying details they radio it in and get back flashes for firearms/offensive weapons/drug use/assault on police/whatever take your pick, and instead of being perfectly complaint become aggressive and ignore officers orders, reaching for something on their person (hands down their waistband say) despite explicitly being told not to. What then do you deem a proper use of force given the confined space?
Why don't we wait for the inevitable trial before we make shit up to defend the police with?
Unmotivate - Updated May 17th - "Let's Complain About Nintendo"
The PA Forumer 'Lets Play' Archive - Updated March 25th, 2013
Thanks for clearing that up.
The irony there is pretty thick, but lets set it aside.
You've got a person doing this, and it's a high traffic area with multiple people nearby/passing. What's your use of force, given you have said that pepper spray is off the table because there are children present?
I thought the case that declared cops dont have to do shit for you involved women living together being held hostage and repeatedly molested/raped for almost a day after they managed to call 911.
Here is the case
Not to be pedantic, but they serve and protect the people by enforcing the laws. They are literally the way that the state wields its monopoly in the legal use of force to enforce the rule of law.
"There are no necessary evils in government. Its evils exist only in its abuses. If it would confine itself to equal protection, and, as Heaven does its rains, shower its favors alike on the high and the low, the rich and the poor, it would be an unqualified blessing." -- Andrew Jackson
The first part is kind of debatable given how unduly our political process and our justice system have been corrupted by money.
I'm not going to pepper spray a family.
Nor would I use pepper spray in a busy public area because other people could get affected.
Unmotivate - Updated May 17th - "Let's Complain About Nintendo"
The PA Forumer 'Lets Play' Archive - Updated March 25th, 2013
The best cookies I've ever eaten were cranberry oatmeal cookies that tasted faintly of the pepper spray I had all over my fingertips.
Nothing about the above sentence is false or fabricated.
Edit: However, please don't go off and incorporate pepper spray into your baking just yet, as it will take me at least ten more years to determine whether or not that gives you cancer.