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[PATV] Wednesday, May 15, 2013 - Extra Credits Season 6, Ep. 10: The JC Penny’s Effect
Posts
Neither! Instead drop Effects.
I believe this has the value of both Gear and Material based systems.
Create a variable that describes a desirous attribute and style. For instance let's call that variable a Spirit, but it can just as easily be defined by Rune, Aura, Sigil, it doesn't matter.
When a drop occurs the item lists the what that spirit's affect is on character types and what type of item (let's say body part) it applies to.
So let's say I Kill a Fire Dragon.
It drops a fire spirit that has an increase to fire standard and the following stats based on the archetypes. I being of the INT Magic Archetype pick up the spirit and I now am awarded with a Fire Wand. Were I of the Warrior Class I pick it up and it's a STR boosting Fire Axe.
The best attributes of evenly distributed loot needs matched with the instant reward gratification.
Then create a system for distilling that spirit so it can be reconstituted into other items. Thus you keep the crafting element.
And this got me thinking that in those terms maybe Fire Fall has made a deliberately weaker skinner box, rewarding often (instead of a big reward randomly seldom) and hoping that other aspects of the game will carry it home.
Anyway Episode 18 is a good one. Check it out if you have not.
And this got me thinking that in those terms maybe Fire Fall has made a deliberately weaker skinner box, rewarding often (instead of a big reward randomly seldom) and hoping that other aspects of the game will carry it home.
Anyway Episode 18 is a good one. Check it out if you have not.
They also abandoned their core customer by switching to higher priced products. They weren't just JC Penneys minus manipulative marketing strategies, they were a completely different store.
I think this could be seen as a theme as well... what happens when gaming companies abandon their core consumer in search of higher sales? Also known as, the future of Bioware.
1) Anecdotally, it seems like JC Penney's clothing is decreasing in quality. I used to shop there, but stopped after I had several items wear out prematurely.
2) JC Penney markets itself as mid-range, which is a dangerous proposition in a downturned economy. Most people will choose either to go cheap (Walmart), or they'll pay more (Macy's, Nordstrom), expecting that their investment will last longer. Target had an issue a couple years ago, because the market perception was that they were higher quality but more expensive than Walmart, so people were shopping at Walmart to save money. In many cases Target actually had the lowest price on a product, so they launched an advertising campaign to inform the public of this.
3) Some anti-gay groups reacted negatively to JC Penney using Ellen DeGeneres as their spokesperson starting in early 2012; although I'd like to think it didn't have that much of an impact, it's certainly possible, and could help explain a decline in sales.
Because eat item *looks like it is made from those materials*. And since those materials are animal body parts, you get some very funky looking gear.
A strong aesthetic makes this system appealing. I happily ground "Boss Snow Monkies" in that game because I liked the look of that full set of Monkey Armour. The fact you craft it yourself makes the item feel more personal. There's a slight "creepiness" attached to gear that drops. The gear feels 'second hand'.
As someone who studies Statistics for A Level, I dislike probability-drops. I know each time I kill X that there's a Y% the ultimate item will drop. If it's a sought-after item then the % will be proportionately low. I don't like thinking each time I try to kill X the Y stays constant. If it's a 1% drop chance, it will *always* be 1% each time. I prefer a more consistent progression.
Perhaps what they can do is have randomly "Bonus Materials". I liked the idea that when something drops, you may unlock a recipe. A thrill in Monster Hunter was that when you gathered a crafting material for the first time, you could see *everything* that could be made from it. You looted a rare black stone? Well then you get a preview of some super rare equipment made with various rare materials that you didn't know existed before hand.
From a narrative point of view it makes more sense. Why *would* a wolf be carrying around a pair of leather trousers? In less it was a were-man.
we need the system from games like UO and SWG where you harvest resources and pure crafters exist again.
I've also found that this also keeps lower level loot a gratifying reward as well. Even if that bandit only has an iron waraxe and I'm already decked out in orichalicum, I can still break that waraxe down into iron ingots, and use that to create nails and hinges for my Hearthfire estate.
I LOVED IT. I played this game because it was about crafting. Also when you "quit" a skill set and then went back to it you didn't start at zero, you picked up where you left off. So I was into nearly every aspect of crafting.
The game suffered, though. The only real loot drops were things for higher end crafting. No new weapons or armor. There were no dungeons, raids or the like really. The only real purpose in adventuring was to get materials for crafting... or be strong enough to survive the higher areas for it.
The game tanked after a while. When they did a major switch over and merged servers to cut costs and with it totally changed where everything was I sort of lost interest. But to get there thousands had lost interest before me.
I don't have empirical evidence. My gut tells me the reason is (or at least one of them) because there wasn't any loot really. There was no reason to go out and adventure compared to the more common MMO where you might get that epic sword, breastplate, blaster, lightsaber, et al. So will it work for FireFall?
I'm sure there are a lot more options than the one in my head... but if you are limited in the number of crafting skills you can take and have to rely on others, it isn't going to work. If you can only upgrade one type of equipment (armor, weapons, shields, jetpack....) but will want all those upgrades, this method will fail. That's what random loot drops solve. You might only have one crafting ability, but you can still get new loot. If all the loot drops are solely for crafting, but you can only do one thing... it won't fly.
I see a time investment in a piece of gear where perhaps others see the fun of the pursuit. I have a goal for end-game with MMOs. While the goal is lofty, there's a path to experience the growth of your character. Component drops give an exact time crunch for X piece of gear. Any number of runs through a dungeon, conversely, can give a vast probability of success when gear grinding. I can see how the "JC Penny" implementation of gear creation can take away a huge amount of fun factor. It's not as dynamic. It's straight, easy math. That shiny purple drop has a vastly lower percentage of dropping but the anticipation for it is palpable--more tangible perhaps than the reward itself. The experienced gamer would see the benefit. Flat out: time = reward. This isn't necessarily so with a WoW dungeon run. That enraging probability destroyed many a 25-man guild.
I don't find straight components a solution, either. I talk about it and think, "who the hell wants to save their money for fun?" World of Bankcraft I think might have a niche audience, but my curiosity ends where this sentence does. The most fun gear system I've played with is in a game I'm ashamed to admit I enjoyed just a few months ago. A terribly written game like Dark Cloud 2 for its weapon system alone is a fun time investment for me. Once you mute the cut-scenes and sometimes even turn off the TV to not be disturbed by the badly-acted cross-dressing fish, the game brings together a kind of component grind WITH gear drop. You level up a piece of gear, break it down into components and absorb it into your main weapon to get a percentage or even all of its abilities added in. It even evolves into other things adding a feeling of accomplishment beyond the feeling of grinding a +67 Bastard Sword of Nofather.
Perhaps off topic: I feel it takes an experienced--perhaps jaded--gamer to have a palette for the grind and see that the end-game is a temporary state, somewhat depending on the genre. It feels great to have your +5 Mighty Wangus of God sword earned, crafted, whatever. The reality is it'll last one or two more chapters, dungeons, levels until an expansion comes out, you finish the game, you find another sword... It doesn't really change the fruit I'm after in the experience. Unless there's a "new game +" option, it's not like you can take your gear with you or even experience a game the same way the second time through holy cock-slapping your opponents into oblivion game genie style. For me "Why?" becomes the broken record track in my head space. Replaying the same act over and over looking at those pretty particle effects, or getting those last achievements becomes a different grind entirely. There might be a goal, but there isn't a real feeling of accomplishment. A different kind of connoisseur would have to emerge. Maybe you can make a +6? But, again, why would you want to? Bragging rights on your friends list, twitter, facebook where you didn't realize you were autoposting to and now all your friends know you played Barbie Horse Adventures and found the elusive Mighty Wangus of God sword? Only one sad person gets the "best" crown. It's the experience that drive me, not the grind ... necessarily. Then again, the best systems have figured out how to make the two non-exclusive.
Blah, I'm pinning down what I wanted to say with the same effectiveness as a new born pins down a greased warthog, but you've inspired me to actually say something, perhaps to the ether. Hello ether! A good exercise anyway in giving voice to a thought I've had for a few years now.
Thank you, I guess, for making me care? Score one against apathy. I enjoy your show.
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In the end i think it all depends on the game. if pvp is the desired end game, component drops make more sense since players can always measure themselves to other people without having to swim through a sea of useless item drops. if pve is the desired end game and players dont compare themselves to much to other players, then you need another way to mark progress like tougher enemies that you couldn't previously beat or a gear loot drop s
To get less biased data from a larger sampling pool, how about giving us a copy/pastable blurb on the sidebar under Episode Notes so we can paste it to our Facebook walls (for bonus points, have it fit into a Twitter post somehow)? It would be one paragraph saying something like:
"This is an informal survey into video game player behavior. In MMOGs like World of Warcraft and Guild Wars 2, do you think it would be better for monsters to drop complete items (even if it's sometimes an item you can't use) or crafting components (even if you have to wait to get back to town to make an item with them)? Send your vote to survey@extra-credits.net by <date>, then go to <Penny Arcade> to see the results on <date>."
Then we can ask people who aren't influenced by your show to vote, too, and you'll have more statistically relevant info (and, perhaps, free plugging for your show...).
To Seek,
To Learn,
To Do.
-QFG2
If the speed of light is faster then the speed of sound, is that why people always appear bright until they speak? o_O
And I also like your idea of selecting something to craft and watching the bar fill up. But people might not like it if they can't change their mind once they choose their next upgrade/item. That might make it "feel" bad. But giving them the option to change at any time might make it too close to just collecting components to craft later, in which case you don't gain anything. Just a thought.
"Gear
Such an easy answer, firefall is F2P. Having component drop just scream that eventually they'll just straight up sell the component a la Dead space 3.
Even in a P2P you run into the problem of group funneling component into specific player, and everyone else essentially getting no gear for a few week."
Some people will come and be all "but firefall will be different, look at LoL they don't sell power" Lol started when the F2P market was empty, now it's overblow, firefall will just be one in a million F2P and won't have the player base and the luxury to not sell power.
You could say "they can just just straight up sell gear" but they won't cause that would be too obviously selling power (they touched on that in that episode, people = stupid straight up selling power is bad, but selling crafting piece slide in so much better). They probably said at some point they weren't going to sell power, but the planetside 2 guys said that a million time and it's just not true.
First off, the F2P market was not empty when League of Legends launched in 2009. There were already hundreds of F2P games out by then. See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_free_massively_multiplayer_online_games and sort by date just for the MMOs.
Moreover, Path of Exile exists. It is brand new, making money hand over fist, and sells only cosmetic items in its store. Firefall has at least as much visibility as PoE. There's no reason they can't succeed on the same terms.
The best way to test it would be to compare how much people actually played games with each drop mechanic. A statistically significant difference between the amount of time people choose to play Mechanic A or Mechanic B would tell you what people would prefer. You could even add a survey at the end, but hard test data trumps surveys/self-report data every time.
We just need to modify the feedback so players can still have the joy they get from "Gear", but do it in a way that is fairer to the player, and more satisfying to them as well.
- You can put in a criteria for what you want, and the game will give you feedback in a manner that feels rewarding:
+ 1st option is a general search, you want let's say a "+10 helmet/armor at least", you select the proper options and go grinding, and based on the components you have, the system lets you know if you have gathered enough components to craft such an item
++ This system is a hybrid of the loot drop, you still don't know what item you are going to get, but you know what you are looking for.
++ The system can also auto update you if at any point you can craft an item that greatly improves on one of your existing gear, either covers more stats, or has better values for each stat
+ 2nd option is specific item quest, you know what item you want to craft, for example a "stick of truth", and the system let's you know how close you are and what you still need before you can craft that item.
++ this covers another but different aspect of gear, collections, it let's you grind to try and find and collect the whole set
+ both options give you a sense of self defined quest for semi specific loot, which is something you normally grind for in a gear scenario, a better sword, a better helmet, a new ring - you are looking to improve your character's stats in some specific way either with a specific item or a minimal bonus - these two options cover both sensations in a way that let's you feel on a self defined quest for self improvement
- An additional option to improve on gear is "potential outfitting", basically this will allows you to go into a special state where you can ask the system to tell you the maximum value you can craft into stats given the components at hand:
+ let's say you want maximal speed, you select "max speed", you have a representation of your character that is now outfitted with nothing but the best "speed bonus" items you can craft.
++ You can drag these items onto your real character outfitting, lets say a belt that makes you lighter and requires 2 pieces of metal and one rare crystal.
++ The components you need to craft the "speed belt" will become transparent, and you now want the best defense, the representation now fills with the best "defense granting" items you can craft with the remaining components, assuming you will be using the 2 pieces of metal and the rare crystal to craft the "speed belt".
+ This system grants the player the joy of customizing and tweaking the character to the best of their ability with what they has available, similar to what would happen in a normal GEAR system after you have enough items.
- regardless the crafting system should indeed include the "new items unlocked" feedback when discovering new components for the first time - this will grant them the same rush as finding rare loot, even if they have nothing they can craft with it at the exact moment - they will know there is something new to see.
I also enjoyed the Dark Cloud Games. The writting wasn't that bad, but the item system with the ability to break down pretty much everything, weapons or armor or standard items such as food or bombs kept things interesting.
Firefall will know the wrath of the desire sensor
I think it might be worth remembering that City of Heroes actually did manage to make a workable crafting thing with enemies giving you craft items and recipes, but I will also admit some frustration in practice. What I think might be good is a combination, something like this 'When Item X drops, classes that item X is not useful for will instead get crafting items" or something similar. This is also nice because it means that even if people might not normally need/want to go on something 'There's nothing there I need' instead they can get crafting materials which should still be useful to them.
To me the notion of "Item Progression" is the problem, not how you obtain the items. Firefall is a perfect example of an MMO that just bores me to tears with it's pre-fab classes that don't give you any meaningful choices. It's no better than WoW in that regard. You aren't actually designing and building a character all of your own, you're just collecting puzzle pieces to the character the developers envisioned for you.
I like games where items aren't a progression, but rather a choice. Do I carry a sword in one hand and a magic wand in the other? Maybe a two handed spear? A bow? A shield perhaps? Do I want to attach a pouch full of potions to my belt? A spellbook? A dagger? What do I have in my pocket? A shuriken? Some sand?
The problem with items in MMO is that they aren't treated as objects you use to perform tasks, but rather as simply a piece of your character that gets stronger and changes looks as you play. This is done to the point where your character can't even use most items, because their function isn't part of the characters narrowly defined role.
The fact of the matter is, MMOs are based on progression. So without item progression, which rather arbitrarily locks out lower characters with less armour/DPS from end-game content, you're left with XP progression, so where your character itself is arbitrarily locked out from end-game content, or perhaps player progression, where execution locks newer players out from end-game content (Guitar Hero the MMO).
Player progression is probably the most rewarding of the three, supposing that you can master it. However, everyone will not be able to play at end-game execution level, and a lot of people will not want to spend the time to get to that level. So it rather unfairly locks people out of a lot of story in a story-heavy genre.
XP progression is really the same as item progression in the most part. All it does is increase the damage and health numbers on your character based on your time spent in the game. The only thing that XP does differently to swapping your sword up a notch every level is in unlockable skill powers. These powers will largely take two forms, combat and utility.
Combat powers are your generic attack powers. XP progression here will unlock new combat powers that are higher damaging than your previous powers, or will upgrade your current powers. Again an internal number increments and you can suddenly mitigate or deal more damage.
Utility powers have uses outside of combat. These are likely to be more interesting and allow you to influence or act upon the game world in a new way. However, they generally aren't used to gate off gameplay, as not every character will pick the same utility powers and so any content gated off by them will become the exclusive realm of only some of the player population. This means some players miss out, and any such content is not cost effective to make. So in games which do this a lot, there will be multiple utility paths that all lead to the same content, so that everyone can gain access no matter which utilities they pick. So utility powers and the picking or lack thereof rarely affect progression and may just exist to be vanity items or to be a trivial point of differentiation between characters (not a bad thing, but doesn't affect the path of the character at all).
So if you don't want progression through items, then the alternatives I can think of are progression through XP or player skill. The latter is a bit restrictive on the player base, and the former is pretty identical to item progression anyway.
If you don't want progression at all, then there will be little achievement in getting to the end of the story. Doesn't make the game invalid, but it does mean that there is little point sticking around once the story has concluded, and little point to grinding. So players are unlikely to stick around and be social, and the MMO part will be hard to sustain without a constant influx of new players. So it just turns the game into a more story-driven single or multiplayer affair.
Character progression is what entices people to MMOs and keeps them interested in the game. A lot of this progression is not mechanically different to item progression, so short of becoming a FPS or requiring some other component of player progression, I'm not sure how you'd be able to separate an MMO from its item/XP treadmill.
Of course it's practical, but
Gift cards aren't much fun.
What GAMES have we encountered that did crafting components as part of drops well? And we an derive how such things can work also by how popular they are.
In support of the component drop system, I'm going to cite two examples in which crafting components were often as exciting, or more exciting than the raw loot drops.
Minecraft, and Skyrim.
In Minecraft, the entire game was based around what components you would find to build and shape the world around you, and on their rarity or difficulty and danger to acquire, diamonds were a drop that provided a good deal of excitement, especially when received for the first time.
In Skryrim, the games most powerful weapons and armor are crafted by the hand of the player. The time invested growing skill and gathering the materials are rewarded by being able to make something legendary by your own hands - and this is a significant leap in development of gaming as it provides a feeling of empowerment through a means that is not often met these days. Not only that but being able to make the weapon endears the player to it. A legendary sword that pops out of the rump of some large dragon isn't going to feel as good when the next monster down the line is simply going to drop something better. But creating a legendary weapon of your own is going to make you more reluctant to put it down, and instead incite the desire to improve the weapon to keep up with the loot curve. If you provide the mechanics to satiate this desire, then suddenly you've got another attractive gameplay aspect to work with.
But more importantly than the up and down waves of feel, is this feeling of continual progression, rather than Skinner-box luck that provides an addictive, but ultimately abusive system. As I have aged as a gamer, the idea of 'getting lucky' with a drop is no longer as exciting as the feeling of accomplishment through progression and hard work.
In the end, both sorts of excitement are needed to make a game worthwhile, and I have a feeling that Firefall will eventually post unique loot in order to stay with the curve. But if they provide a means of making your own incredible weapon and bring that idea to the forefront, while still having the chance of picking up powerful but not the best gear from the game, people will ease themselves into the component scene and enjoy it.