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[Higher Education] Practical Problems and Philosophical Foundations
Posts
Oh.
Well, fair enough. I also recall wondering if those same people (and I don't know if this category includes you) who resent PoliSci undergrads/MAs not going on to pursue doctorates in PoliSci would resent me for just wanting to take what I need from it and use it to my own devious ends. :P
Because they always were, really, at least to an extent.
We just told fewer people to go get them.
And they didn't cost $Texas. I wouldn't hate the ideal with a seething passion if tuition weren't such a killer. Or if people were given an option that wasn't laughed at.
Sometimes its a fun game to walk around a corporate environment and ask folks what their degrees are in. You hear some of the wildest stuff.
<-- Japanese language major. Into my 13th year as an IT professional. The only time the Japanese came up is when the pharma company I worked for got bought by a Japanese company. I was able to impress the new owners on their tour by saying. "Hello, my name is CptRugged, please to meet you".
I was vacillating in that post between "almost does not matter" and "does not matter." In retrospect, I think it should have just been "does not matter at all." :P
Absolutely.
"There are no necessary evils in government. Its evils exist only in its abuses. If it would confine itself to equal protection, and, as Heaven does its rains, shower its favors alike on the high and the low, the rich and the poor, it would be an unqualified blessing." -- Andrew Jackson
But those classes are still highly specialized.
Like, they teach you all all about the tons of different varieties of, say, electrical engineering because they don't know what specific job you will have, what knowledge you will need and they want to equip you with the skills to succeed at any job related to the field.
But that field itself is still highly specialized within the greater sum of knowledge that is learnable at any university.
Universities never had this role historically and it is only a 20th century invention that it is a place to "learn new and varied things".
It was always a traditional ground for preparation for the nobility to rule or for the merchants to develop new contacts or learn their trade, I would argue that math was also important, than to learn about new and varied things.
Think about it Anthropology was always the realm of the wealthy and upper class who could actually afford to travel around and thus this "science" for discussing other people developed. \
This idea of a place to learn is an American invention which coincided with the idea of the "American dream". This had never existed, as I mentioned previously, was only recently.
I disagree with everything but the assertion that math was important:
"Let None But Geometers Enter Here."
"There are no necessary evils in government. Its evils exist only in its abuses. If it would confine itself to equal protection, and, as Heaven does its rains, shower its favors alike on the high and the low, the rich and the poor, it would be an unqualified blessing." -- Andrew Jackson
http://www.thedailyshow.com/watch/thu-may-9-2013/stay-out-of-school
Because universities have been around for centuries. I myself went to one that has been around since 1583, and while the "nobility" often went to university, so did the burgeoning new class of businessmen, scientists, and scholars that built our shiny new enlightenment.
$$$$$$$$$$$
He is subsidizing your education, to a certain extent.
Certainly. You can examine the situation, not in the Western context, but in an Middle Eastern or Islamic context where the Universities, especially in places like Baghdad before the Mongol Invasion catered to the established elites who funded works like the translation movement which was the by products of the these institutions or even looking further on Mughal India or Qajar Iran especially during the 18th and 19th centuries where the same principles were applied.
It is another matter when you take Universities in a Western concept.
Late to the party, but your friend is being inconsistent. Not only is this a terrible way for us to think about college, but he is a libertarian advocating state planning of the economy. If the state is only choosing to fund STEM careers, then it is effectively taking an active, interventionist role in the economy. Tell him to read some Hayek (since, you know, he probably didn't take a liberal arts class that covered it.)
I wish he was subsidizing. I then wouldn't have to pay these outrageous foreign student fees.
Again, you are taking in a Western concept where this "new class" could emerge with no noble backing. It was another matter completely in the rest of the world until the advent of the Colonial empires.
Perhaps you should take more Western history classes if you missed my reference to an institution. Of higher learning that is quite old and was not exclusively for th nobility.
"There are no necessary evils in government. Its evils exist only in its abuses. If it would confine itself to equal protection, and, as Heaven does its rains, shower its favors alike on the high and the low, the rich and the poor, it would be an unqualified blessing." -- Andrew Jackson
Islamic Universities were much older than Western Universities.
Older than 387 BC?
"There are no necessary evils in government. Its evils exist only in its abuses. If it would confine itself to equal protection, and, as Heaven does its rains, shower its favors alike on the high and the low, the rich and the poor, it would be an unqualified blessing." -- Andrew Jackson
Which may work in theory, but in practice it winds up sending the stupid rich kids to university and sending the smart poor kids to trade schools.
Also, you'd have to roll back about four decades or so of changes to the United States economy before you could transition back to having post-high school education become the exclusive playground of the elite. There aren't that many janitorial jobs to make up for all the manufacturing jobs that have been lost as the U.S. has shifted towards being a service economy.
Gee am I talking in Western terms? The terms that most of us on this board operate under?
Hmm.
TNC is talking about nonsense when it comes to the western model of universities. There is literally nothing applicable about the American college system to be found here.
That's pretty much immaterial to the point of whether or not universities were meant as places of higher learning in the 18th and 19th century.
You said they weren't.
Plenty were.
You are wrong.
It's been a really long time since I had any humanities classes. They were all sort of taught from a liberal apologist point of view. Opium wars, slavery, spheres of influence, slavery, oppression of cultures, slavery, and the rape of natural resources.
Though maybe a more middle eastern outlook would have been better for my cultural self-esteem. Like I keep reading this and can't help thinking, w00t western imperialism.
Click here for a horrible H/A thread with details.
As a history major, I find it infinitely amusing how many people call a simple laying out of the facts of the last couple centuries equates to a "liberal" view of history. Of course, we live in an age when a biologist, climatologist and geologist explaining the evidence from their fields are also liberals, so it does make sense.
Like, you realize that bit right there was pretty much a joke? Like, my intent was to amuse.
I am kinda serious about the other part. I mean, yeah, we shat on a lot of places and people, but if breaking the chains of caste systems and injecting meritocracy and social mobility into their societies was a result, well... it certainly ain't all bad.
TNC's comments really make me feel like there was something to that whole 'white man's burden' thing, which is frankly uncomfortable for me(a cause of dissonance because I believe the west's actions and beliefs were almost universally wrong), so I defuse that with humor.
Click here for a horrible H/A thread with details.
Yeah. It was more of a generalized observation, not a slam on you.
As for the larger point, meritocracy is the logical endpoint for any society that understands basic biology and genetics. TNC might as well believe that his specialness comes from the farts of angels. It's just the same fancied up caveman hierarchy shit that kept humanity spinning in circles for two hundred thousand years.
The real secret to progress is that ability is randomly distributed because of the vagaries of genetics. Modern societies try to break down traditional hierarchies to make sure that they aren't wasting their geniuses on shit shoveling while putting their inbred morons in positions of power based on whether their great-grandfather was the second cousin of some illiterate noble.
You can still choose which facts to present and have a skewed perspective as a result. Everything Was Fine Until White Men Showed Up is one option, which I think redx is getting at. Other options include the traditional White Men Civilized Backwards Savages, which you can find in a 1950's classroom or any modern book with "politically incorrect" in the title. As a non-history major, I tend to assume that pretty much everybody was seriously fucked up by modern standards anyways, even if it sounds a bit tautological.
I think it is fascinating that anyone who has spent any serious time studying history would claim that it is ever a "simple laying out of the facts." You are always choosing what to include.
"There are no necessary evils in government. Its evils exist only in its abuses. If it would confine itself to equal protection, and, as Heaven does its rains, shower its favors alike on the high and the low, the rich and the poor, it would be an unqualified blessing." -- Andrew Jackson
I think the "Everything Was Fine Until White Men Showed Up" is the most valid option when considering the history of Iran, South Asia and Inner/Central Asia
If by subsidizing his education, you mean subsidizing the football team then you probably have a point.
Yay! Your Education: Brought to you by Clear Channel.
I laugh when I see the 'free or nearly free' part. Education is second pretty much only to a house as the largest 'purchase' in most people's lives. I find it unlikely that is going to get devalued anytime soon.
Online courses are going to be a thing, but last time I checked I pay the same $ / credit hour for online courses I pay to attend in person (PLUS a tech fee).
MOOCs are the higher education form of "education reform".
http://chronicle.com/article/The-Document-Open-Letter-From/138937/
Yes, using language like "ever being a people" is definately a problem. Especially in a thread about education. =-)
Speaking as an Engineer (with an MS), my degree taught me critical thinking skills and opens doors for me. It didn't teach me to be an engineer any more than a doctorate of medicine makes you a medical doctor. As was noted previously, there's a path that must be followed in order to become a licensed engineer much like there is for a medical doctor.
I work for a large company that employes a huge engineering force. Only about 30% of our engineering workforce is doing engineering functions, however. The rest are in finance, inventory, etc.
What I do is considered Engineering work, but all I really do is technical review of contracts and customer support. So, I'm not using the technical knowledge of my degree at all. In fact, the most important part of my degree for my job other than the critical thinking skills is probably the speech and two english classes I took as a freshman.