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Iron Thread 3: Out Now! [Iron Man 3] (Use SPOILER Tags!)

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Posts

  • JoolanderJoolander Registered User regular
    you know I have to do this, right?
    Quid wrote: »
    Joolander wrote: »
    Quid wrote: »
    Heating up the belly didn't open the suit, Rhodes did because the alternative was get broiled alive.

    then why
    does he say "Don't open. Don't open. Don't open. Don't open. Don't -- ok, we're doing this? Lets go!?
    I assumed he was just talking to himself.

    Though I guess because I missed it it's a complete failing on the movie's part, not mine.
    Quid wrote: »
    Nah they did it fine. You just missed it. It's okay though. It happens.

  • QuidQuid The Fifth Horseman Registered User regular
    That was the joke.
  • nightmarennynightmarenny Registered User regular
    ED! wrote: »
    I'm not a marvel booster because I used a comparison to a film in the same genre.
    If you can't see the parallels between the Mandarin in the trailers and Nolans Batman films in particular Rises I don't know what to tell you dawg

    I get that you didn't like the movie but you're being kind of silly at this point.
    Sure dawg. That's what they were doing. I mean clear as day; shame that I'm the only one in Internetdom that doesn't get it. Holler if you are hearing me.

    If you have to have other people explain it, it probably wasn't done very well. But regardless of how one feels about the character treatment, thank goodness they had the good sense to make sure they have a cogent villain waiting in the wings that wasn't a retread of the first two films previous villains.

    There is a post release interview where Shane black says literally that. I will post it when I get home from work.
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  • maximumzeromaximumzero Registered User regular
    Though you'd think that if AIM did the upgrades to the Iron Patriot armor Killian would have had some sort of secret "armor open button" stuck on there somewhere.
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  • QuidQuid The Fifth Horseman Registered User regular
    Well it's not to crazy to just use a safety precaution instead of trying to add malicious code. Why spend all that time hacking a building's security system when you can pull the fire alarm?
  • AistanAistan Registered User regular
    I just got back from seeing this and, having not read a single Marvel comic previously, I thoroughly enjoyed every minute of it.

    Probably enjoyed it more than Iron Man 1, if i'm adjusting for nostalgia the correct amount.
  • Kipling217Kipling217 Registered User regular
    Kipling217 wrote: »
    Kipling217 wrote: »
    Kipling217 wrote: »
    The Movie Mandarin
    Is a non-racist version of the Mandarin, one that works too. Truth is every non-racist version of the Mandarin is one that removes him from his origin, because his origin is pretty racist no matter how you slice it. In the comics he started as a yellow peril villain wanting to rule the world because of his exalted lineage/race, revisions have toned it down, but its still the core of his character. Even Gene Khan in Armored Adventures had traces of it. The Movie Version just turns it into a joke, which is what any person claiming to be special because of their lineage/race is. The movie shows how constructed the Yellow Peril Villain is.

    As for the Mandarin Rings, the Mandarin in the comics is best when he commands henchmen to do his dirty work for him. When he is the leader of a group. Having him use stolen rings to go mano a mano with Iron Man, just undermines the character, because its the ring that are the threat and not the Mandarin himself. Its a weakness of the original character too.
    I disagree. The Mandarin's rings are no different from Stark wearing his Iron Man suits. Both men have access to advanced technology but their sources are different. Those rings are extremely dangerous. He's a threat since he's mentally controlling them. Mandarin is also a physical threat without the rings, too. IIRC he has super-strength that's enough to rip open Stark's suits like toilet paper.
    Difference is that the Rings do not belong to the Mandarin. He did not create them, he stole them for a crashed alien space ship. Tony Stark designed and built his suits. the Rings makes him into a jumped up thug with stolen weapons. It reduces the implicit threat from a mastermind villain, to some lucky guy that stumbled on the discovery of a life time. As for his super-strength it is just superb martial arts skills that has been retconned down several times. Seeing a normal person punch through armor that bullets can't dent is stretching it a bit.
    I disagree. So what if he didn't design those rings? He's still very much a threat to Iron Man with them. The man is capable of engaging in schemes that Stark can barely keep up with. He's not just a thug with advanced technology otherwise he'd never be anything but a super-powered lackey to someone else not Iron Man's arch-enemy.

    They can add his super-strength to an ability the rings gave him or a plot device he had scientists reverse engineer technology from Fin Fang Foom's ship.
    And its the Mandarin's schemes that are the cool part of him. You say so yourself. Not the Rings. Therefore the rings are not necessary. A true Mandarin portrayal should focus on his intellect, his ability to lead a group and to plot schemes that attack Tony from unexpected angels.

    Like I have said again and again, The Mandarin with the rings is just some guy that got lucky. The Mandarin without the rings is somebody that uses his intellect, leadership and plots to become a viable threat to Tony.
    The rings give him an edge over anyone he fights. Not everybody could use those rings to their utmost potential unlike Mandarin IMO. His brain is his greatest weapon but the rings are his trump card. He can be both lucky to find those rings and a criminal mastermind that makes Stark sweat over his world domination schemes.

    Just going to have to agree to disagree on this one.

    Communicating from the last of the Babylon Stations.
  • nightmarennynightmarenny Registered User regular
    The following link contains the most spoiler-y of spoils.

    Shane Black discussing Iron Man 3 after release

    Relevant quotes
    It was not an easy choice to greenlight, but Marvel chief Feige says it’s sometimes important to break with tradition, even at the risk of alienating some purists. “Shane really had a lot of great ideas about identity and about false faces and about anonymity,” he said.
    Black and co-writer Drew Pearce proposed this argument in favor of The Mandarin twist: “What if he’s sort of this all-things-to-all-people uber-terrorist? What if he is the myth, and in the end that is what we’re dealing with, a created myth that [a research group] has perpetuated and cobbled together using elements from popular consciousness,” Black says. “It felt like it said more about the world we live in than just having [Iron Man] fight another terrorist, as opposed to putting a spin on it that said something about the way we view terror, perhaps.”
    “What it says to me is, we have to be careful. We want to find villains in the world, but it’s a complex world,” Black adds. “If you’re smart in this world, you’ll rule by proxy because the minute you stick your face out there and assign yourself to the role of international villain you become this symbolic target.”
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  • TaminTamin Registered User regular
    Question:
    What is the difference between a terrorist and a [super] villain?
  • QuidQuid The Fifth Horseman Registered User regular
    Pizazz.
  • Harry DresdenHarry Dresden Registered User regular
    Tamin wrote: »
    Question:
    What is the difference between a terrorist and a [super] villain?

    Magic, super-powers and advanced technology.
  • JoolanderJoolander Registered User regular
    Tamin wrote: »
    Question:
    What is the difference between a terrorist and a [super] villain?

    Magic, super-powers and advanced technology.

    the Joker has none of these things

    jus' sayin'
  • Robos A Go GoRobos A Go Go Registered User regular
    The following link contains the most spoiler-y of spoils.

    Shane Black discussing Iron Man 3 after release

    Relevant quotes
    It was not an easy choice to greenlight, but Marvel chief Feige says it’s sometimes important to break with tradition, even at the risk of alienating some purists. “Shane really had a lot of great ideas about identity and about false faces and about anonymity,” he said.
    Black and co-writer Drew Pearce proposed this argument in favor of The Mandarin twist: “What if he’s sort of this all-things-to-all-people uber-terrorist? What if he is the myth, and in the end that is what we’re dealing with, a created myth that [a research group] has perpetuated and cobbled together using elements from popular consciousness,” Black says. “It felt like it said more about the world we live in than just having [Iron Man] fight another terrorist, as opposed to putting a spin on it that said something about the way we view terror, perhaps.”
    “What it says to me is, we have to be careful. We want to find villains in the world, but it’s a complex world,” Black adds. “If you’re smart in this world, you’ll rule by proxy because the minute you stick your face out there and assign yourself to the role of international villain you become this symbolic target.”

    I like what he has to say about
    terrorizing by proxy being how it's truly done, but if you're going to show how villains are sometimes puppets for more powerful forces then you really need to capture both the puppet and the puppet master.

    While I felt that the Mandarin's portrayal was inspired and rang true as a bit a political commentary, I don't think the same can be said of Killian, whose own motives and goals are very much in-keeping with our more cartoonish understanding of bad guys in our world.

    Part of that is perhaps out of necessity, because at the end of it all you need someone Tony can beat with punches and lasers, but after going for something edgy and challenging with Mandarin the ending really felt like an anti-climax.
  • Harry DresdenHarry Dresden Registered User regular
    Joolander wrote: »
    Tamin wrote: »
    Question:
    What is the difference between a terrorist and a [super] villain?

    Magic, super-powers and advanced technology.

    the Joker has none of these things

    jus' sayin'

    The Joker in The Dark Knight? Sure. He's a terrorist with a clown gimmick. The Joker from Burton's Batman? Super-villain. Same goes for the Timm-verse Joker.
  • PailryderPailryder Registered User regular
    here is a big reason i don't think the Iron Man movies are "great" movies. (i find them highly entertaining but not better than say a Die Hard movie)
    These movies are just Robert Downy Jr in a crazy adventure. If you replace RDJ with someone else, i'm not sure how entertaining these movies would be, and i'm much more confident that people would pay more attention to the flaws of the movies if they weren't so entertained by RDJ's performance.
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  • TomantaTomanta Registered User regular
    DarkPrimus wrote: »
    Pailryder wrote: »
    here is a big reason i don't think the Iron Man movies are "great" movies. (i find them highly entertaining but not better than say a Die Hard movie)
    These movies are just Robert Downy Jr in a crazy adventure. If you replace RDJ with someone else, i'm not sure how entertaining these movies would be, and i'm much more confident that people would pay more attention to the flaws of the movies if they weren't so entertained by RDJ's performance.

    I don't think you can fault the Iron Man films for having good casting.

    I don't think you can fault any movie for that.

    Agreed.

    It's not RDJ's fault that he is Tony Stark.
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  • Harry DresdenHarry Dresden Registered User regular
    Tomanta wrote: »
    DarkPrimus wrote: »
    Pailryder wrote: »
    here is a big reason i don't think the Iron Man movies are "great" movies. (i find them highly entertaining but not better than say a Die Hard movie)
    These movies are just Robert Downy Jr in a crazy adventure. If you replace RDJ with someone else, i'm not sure how entertaining these movies would be, and i'm much more confident that people would pay more attention to the flaws of the movies if they weren't so entertained by RDJ's performance.

    I don't think you can fault the Iron Man films for having good casting.

    I don't think you can fault any movie for that.

    Agreed.

    It's not RDJ's fault that he is Tony Stark.

    That doesn't mean he can't be replaced.
  • wanderingwandering Registered User regular
    People keep drawing parallels between IM3 and Rises but
    what Iron Man 3 really reminded me of was Batman Begins.

    Asian villain turns out to be actor controlled by white guy.
    jBEKRTH.png
  • Harry DresdenHarry Dresden Registered User regular
    wandering wrote: »
    People keep drawing parallels between IM3 and Rises but
    what Iron Man 3 really reminded me of was Batman Begins.

    Asian villain turns out to be actor controlled by white guy.
    Was Watanbe's Ra's really an actor, though? I don't think we see enough of him on screen to confirm one way or another.
  • AManFromEarthAManFromEarth Their ideas are old and their ideas are bad. Risk is our business.Registered User regular
    wandering wrote: »
    People keep drawing parallels between IM3 and Rises but
    what Iron Man 3 really reminded me of was Batman Begins.

    Asian villain turns out to be actor controlled by white guy.
    Was Watanbe's Ra's really an actor, though? I don't think we see enough of him on screen to confirm one way or another.
    Well he wasn't Ra's al Ghul, so he was at the very least a stand in.
    Lh96QHG.png
  • Harry DresdenHarry Dresden Registered User regular
    wandering wrote: »
    People keep drawing parallels between IM3 and Rises but
    what Iron Man 3 really reminded me of was Batman Begins.

    Asian villain turns out to be actor controlled by white guy.
    Was Watanbe's Ra's really an actor, though? I don't think we see enough of him on screen to confirm one way or another.
    Well he wasn't Ra's al Ghul, so he was at the very least a stand in.
    I thought Ra's was a title, not his real name. Though they were incredibly vague about stuff like that.
  • AManFromEarthAManFromEarth Their ideas are old and their ideas are bad. Risk is our business.Registered User regular
    wandering wrote: »
    People keep drawing parallels between IM3 and Rises but
    what Iron Man 3 really reminded me of was Batman Begins.

    Asian villain turns out to be actor controlled by white guy.
    Was Watanbe's Ra's really an actor, though? I don't think we see enough of him on screen to confirm one way or another.
    Well he wasn't Ra's al Ghul, so he was at the very least a stand in.
    I thought Ra's was a title, not his real name. Though they were incredibly vague about stuff like that.
    The existence of Talia would say that this is not the case. At the very least, when Bruce gets to the mountain, Liam Neeson is Ra's al Ghul and had been for some time as of The Dark Knight Rises.

    That said, I think it's fair to say wandering was making a bit light of the situation.
    Lh96QHG.png
  • ED!ED! Registered User regular
    wandering wrote: »
    People keep drawing parallels between IM3 and Rises but
    what Iron Man 3 really reminded me of was Batman Begins.

    Asian villain turns out to be actor controlled by white guy.
    Was Watanbe's Ra's really an actor, though? I don't think we see enough of him on screen to confirm one way or another.

    Nope. He was League of Shadows full-on. And I can see how folks would have had a problem with that choice as well, though I absolutely believed they handled it better.

    And I read the EW article as soon as a I came home, and it did nothing to wash the annoyance of the marketing campaign out of my brain. His quote in particular about:
    How do we do The Mandarin. . .

    Just read fucking lazy to me. You do it the same way they have done every other character in the last decade of comic movies that has had "issues". This whole crutch of
    "Oh The Mandarin has this incredibly racist origin and 'Yellow Peril' how can we possibly do this?" News flash. You don't. Just like they replaced swastikas with Hydra's you replace Fu-Manchu with something a bit more down to Earth, but still hewing closer to the comics. I mean if they wanted to do this "proxy villain. . ." nonsense, there were any NUMBER of ways to go about doing that without wiping your ass on and wasting a character that could have legitimately rocked.

    "Get the hell out of me" - [ex]girlfriend
  • Harry DresdenHarry Dresden Registered User regular
    ED! wrote: »
    Nope. He was League of Shadows full-on. And I can see how folks would have had a problem with that choice as well, though I absolutely believed they handled it better.
    Phrased that badly. I don't mean in the Mandarin sense, I mean was he really the current Ra's or just a decoy member for Ducard to hide behind. The second guy was clearly the latter they were too vague about the former.
  • nightmarennynightmarenny Registered User regular
    Ok so l'm fresh from a second viewing and
    RE: Starks surgery the exact lines are( or at least very close to)

    As for Pepper I was able to sort her out - with a little tinkering - And then I thought hey - Why stop there?

    Make of that what you will.
    Pailryder wrote: »
    here is a big reason i don't think the Iron Man movies are "great" movies. (i find them highly entertaining but not better than say a Die Hard movie)
    These movies are just Robert Downy Jr in a crazy adventure. If you replace RDJ with someone else, i'm not sure how entertaining these movies would be, and i'm much more confident that people would pay more attention to the flaws of the movies if they weren't so entertained by RDJ's performance.

    The chilly reception of IM2 and divided opinions of both SHerlock Holmes would seem to poke holes in this theory.

    It seems like a kinda silly argument anyway. If you like Diehard more then the Ironman movies you just don't enjoy them as much. There are likely flaws or choices you don't like but its not proof of some RDJ smoke screen making us watch bad movies cause he's in it. Oh and the fact that Banner stole the Avengers for a lot of people.
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  • ED!ED! Registered User regular
    ED! wrote: »
    Nope. He was League of Shadows full-on. And I can see how folks would have had a problem with that choice as well, though I absolutely believed they handled it better.
    Phrased that badly. I don't mean in the Mandarin sense, I mean was he really the current Ra's or just a decoy member for Ducard to hide behind. The second guy was clearly the latter they were too vague about the former.
    At the Wayne Manor party scene Ducard confirms he is "RAG". I was ok with the way they handled that, because it still gave you the eco-terrorist RAG (just w/o the Lazarus Pits). Here Black basically is saying "Eh, I don't know how to do it. . .so lets just waste the character."

    If they decide to bring the character back in some way, more power to them. I doubt they will. My only hope is that the positive response to the trailer had MARVEL HQ sitting back and thinking "Maybe we should have tried harder."
    "Get the hell out of me" - [ex]girlfriend
  • Harry DresdenHarry Dresden Registered User regular
    ED! wrote: »
    ED! wrote: »
    Nope. He was League of Shadows full-on. And I can see how folks would have had a problem with that choice as well, though I absolutely believed they handled it better.
    Phrased that badly. I don't mean in the Mandarin sense, I mean was he really the current Ra's or just a decoy member for Ducard to hide behind. The second guy was clearly the latter they were too vague about the former.
    At the Wayne Manor party scene Ducard confirms he is "RAG". I was ok with the way they handled that, because it still gave you the eco-terrorist RAG (just w/o the Lazarus Pits). Here Black basically is saying "Eh, I don't know how to do it. . .so lets just waste the character."

    If they decide to bring the character back in some way, more power to them. I doubt they will. My only hope is that the positive response to the trailer had MARVEL HQ sitting back and thinking "Maybe we should have tried harder."

    I'd like for Whedon to
    show the real Mandarin
    if he directs an Iron Man movie.
  • nightmarennynightmarenny Registered User regular
    edited May 2013
    ED! wrote: »
    ED! wrote: »
    Nope. He was League of Shadows full-on. And I can see how folks would have had a problem with that choice as well, though I absolutely believed they handled it better.
    Phrased that badly. I don't mean in the Mandarin sense, I mean was he really the current Ra's or just a decoy member for Ducard to hide behind. The second guy was clearly the latter they were too vague about the former.
    At the Wayne Manor party scene Ducard confirms he is "RAG". I was ok with the way they handled that, because it still gave you the eco-terrorist RAG (just w/o the Lazarus Pits). Here Black basically is saying "Eh, I don't know how to do it. . .so lets just waste the character."

    If they decide to bring the character back in some way, more power to them. I doubt they will. My only hope is that the positive response to the trailer had MARVEL HQ sitting back and thinking "Maybe we should have tried harder."

    I'd like for Whedon to
    show the real Mandarin
    if he directs an Iron Man movie.

    Oh don't worry
    I bet the real Mandarin makes another appearance.
    troll-face-sticker_9ba2f.jpg
    Seriously this is starting to boarder on delusion.
    nightmarenny on
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  • DracomicronDracomicron Registered User regular
    I don't hate Iron Man 1, but the third act is very weak. The final battle was way more tedious and rote than seemed necessary.

    I thought THAT was a wate of a good villain. Stane could've stuck around and continued to meddle and cast doubts about Stark Senior.
    ED! wrote: »
    If they decide to bring the character back in some way, more power to them. I doubt they will. My only hope is that the positive response to the trailer had MARVEL HQ sitting back and thinking "Maybe we should have tried harder."[/spoiler]

    "Try harder?" Marvel tried something insanely ambitious with this movie. If you don't like what they did, that's fine. Everybody's entitled to an opinion, but there's not much cause for saying that Marvel or Shane Black or whomever was "lazy" or that they copped out. This is simply not the case.
    They diverged from their historical canon (such as it is) and made a statement about America and our response to terrorism. They cast aside the elements that might not work as well in a live action film and cast the characters and situations in a different story that still remained true to the themes of the comic. That's called "effective film-making."

    It would have been easier to just do it the traditional way, but the narrative would've suffered by going down that path.
    How many times have we seen Batman's origin story? How many times have we seen Spider Man take out any given enemy in his rogue's gallery? How effective are these old stories anymore?
  • Harry DresdenHarry Dresden Registered User regular
    ED! wrote: »
    ED! wrote: »
    Nope. He was League of Shadows full-on. And I can see how folks would have had a problem with that choice as well, though I absolutely believed they handled it better.
    Phrased that badly. I don't mean in the Mandarin sense, I mean was he really the current Ra's or just a decoy member for Ducard to hide behind. The second guy was clearly the latter they were too vague about the former.
    At the Wayne Manor party scene Ducard confirms he is "RAG". I was ok with the way they handled that, because it still gave you the eco-terrorist RAG (just w/o the Lazarus Pits). Here Black basically is saying "Eh, I don't know how to do it. . .so lets just waste the character."

    If they decide to bring the character back in some way, more power to them. I doubt they will. My only hope is that the positive response to the trailer had MARVEL HQ sitting back and thinking "Maybe we should have tried harder."

    I'd like for Whedon to
    show the real Mandarin
    if he directs an Iron Man movie.

    Oh don't worry
    I bet the real Mandarin makes another appearance.
    troll-face-sticker_9ba2f.jpg
    Seriously this is starting to boarder on delusion.

    I didn't say it will happen I said I'd like for it to happen.
  • wanderingwandering Registered User regular
    You know what I want to see lots more of in future movies?
    suited-up/superhero Pepper
    jBEKRTH.png
  • Harry DresdenHarry Dresden Registered User regular
    I don't hate Iron Man 1, but the third act is very weak. The final battle was way more tedious and rote than seemed necessary.

    I thought THAT was a wate of a good villain. Stane could've stuck around and continued to meddle and cast doubts about Stark Senior.
    ED! wrote: »
    If they decide to bring the character back in some way, more power to them. I doubt they will. My only hope is that the positive response to the trailer had MARVEL HQ sitting back and thinking "Maybe we should have tried harder."[/spoiler]

    "Try harder?" Marvel tried something insanely ambitious with this movie. If you don't like what they did, that's fine. Everybody's entitled to an opinion, but there's not much cause for saying that Marvel or Shane Black or whomever was "lazy" or that they copped out. This is simply not the case.
    They diverged from their historical canon (such as it is) and made a statement about America and our response to terrorism. They cast aside the elements that might not work as well in a live action film and cast the characters and situations in a different story that still remained true to the themes of the comic. That's called "effective film-making."

    It would have been easier to just do it the traditional way, but the narrative would've suffered by going down that path.
    How many times have we seen Batman's origin story? How many times have we seen Spider Man take out any given enemy in his rogue's gallery? How effective are these old stories anymore?
    Black changed it because he thought it wouldn't work as a film, that isn't a fact that a serious Mandarin can't be made properly in a big budget movie. Mandarin was probably outside his creative wheelhouse, anyway. That and he loathed the (incorrect) Mandarin concept from the start.
  • WinkyWinky Registered User regular
    Black also didn't want to make a boring movie.
    And yes, the movie that would've had the Mandarin as the main bad guy would've been a boring, dull movie. Feel free to disagree.

    What I know is that going into Ironman 3 I did not have high hopes at all for the movie, assuming that the trailers were straightforward, and I left a much happier person.
    vspgsp.jpg
  • QuidQuid The Fifth Horseman Registered User regular
    Not using the version of the Mandarin that you personally want isn't being lazy.

    Fighting a genius terrorist would have been Iron Man 2. Deciding to not do Iron Man 2 again was a good thing.
  • mxmarksmxmarks Registered User regular
    I brought this up a couple pages ago, but seriously, I love this.

    Remember when this happened in the movie?
    LEGO-Iron-Man-3-Mandarin.jpg

    I love that even the LEGO sets are just a total, blatant misdirection.

    How did this meeting even GO at LEGO?

    "OK so for Avengers we'll do the Cube Escape set, a helicarrier set, a couple Battle of New York sets. Great.

    For Iron Man 3...I dunno, just go fucking nuts. It's all lies."

    Glorious lies.

    XBL: MXrox - PSN: mxmarks - "Yes, mxmarks is the King of Queens" - Unbreakable Vow
  • JoolanderJoolander Registered User regular
    mxmarks wrote: »
    I brought this up a couple pages ago, but seriously, I love this.

    Remember when this happened in the movie?
    LEGO-Iron-Man-3-Mandarin.jpg

    I love that even the LEGO sets are just a total, blatant misdirection.

    How did this meeting even GO at LEGO?

    "OK so for Avengers we'll do the Cube Escape set, a helicarrier set, a couple Battle of New York sets. Great.

    For Iron Man 3...I dunno, just go fucking nuts. It's all lies."

    Glorious lies.

    I like to think that
    Mandarin's tank think is named Fin Fang Foom

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