[Mechwarrior:Online] Weapon Rebalancing on the 21st. Oosik Sigs on P19

AvalonGuard

Forbe's sig is best sig.

Stabbity Style

AvalonGuard wrote: »

Forbe's sig is best sig.

It really is. If I ever get mountain line camo for some of my mechs, I'm going to join the Ham Brigade. Neapolitan camo is uniform.

Mvrck

This is what I've been doing this weekend. Hopefully I can untangle it all and get it working by Wednesday.

BillGates

Ninja Snarl P wrote: »

BillGates wrote: »

Ninja Snarl P wrote: »

BillGates wrote: »

Ninja Snarl P wrote: »

Spectrum wrote: »

Ninja Snarl P wrote: »

(just not many people take LRMs right now because the reduced damage makes them much more balanced than PPCs, so nobody wants to waste weight on missiles)

No one takes LRMs because they're inferior as a ranged option due to requiring a lock for the entire flight time. This is a great situation for getting you or your spotter's head shot off by direct fire weapons.

Well yeah, that's a large part of what I mean. When LRMs were doing crazy damage, the current PPC imbalance caused by HSR would've been an entirely second-rate problem because LRM damage was utterly insane. Now that LRM damage is sane, they're pathetic compared to what PPCs can do because PPCs have no lock limitations and deal pinpoint damage and move super-fast. No chance of popping out for a second, dropping 40-55 damage on one panel of a target, and then popping back behind cover with LRMs.

Not that I'm complaining about that, mind, but the current PPC metagame wrecking balance is masking further issues like the way LRMs and streaks target the CT almost exclusively, which was more my point. PGI needs to stop reacting to balance issues and the need to anticipate them, because most of the open beta at this point has been spent with them playing catchup on balancing weapons that really should not be taking weeks or months to fix. I appreciate the extra stuff they're doing that we don't see like working on the Community Warfare, but if they can't keep the game fun and worthwhile to play, there won't be a community around to participate in said warfare. In open beta, MWO has spent less time in a semi-balanced state than in stupidly unbalanced states, and even diehards like myself can only tolerate that for so long before giving up on the whole thing.

What? SSRM's are broke for the CT sure, but LRM's? No, thats completely wrong. If you stand still and take a volley, of course it's going to hit center mass, but if you are moving it will hit you appropriately.

SSRM's are broken for the fact that even if you torso twist and give the enemy mech your arm the SSRM's will STILL hit the CT, LRM's don't work like that. If you give your arm to LRM's you will take damage on your arm and side torso but not the CT. Thats the reason why SSRM's are broken and why LRM's are not. In fact, LRM's need a buff. More then just a speed increase, a damage increase is in order as well. 0.7 to maybe 1.

Considering I've had my entire Jager CT stripped of armor in a single salvo of double LRM20 with the other torso section only turning slightly yellow, even with the current balances, no, LRMs aren't working right. There's simply no justification for LRMs to be grouping that nicely, considering what it takes to get them hit. It doesn't hardly happen right now because nobody is taking LRMs, but LRMs and streaks alike are targeting CTs far, far, far too agressively for decent balance once PPCs get dialed down; they only adjusted the damage from before, and it seems like they haven't even touched the actual behavior of the missiles since the patch that made them ridiculous.

LRMs do need adjustments and buffs, absolutely, but PGI needs to make changes that are something other than just whether or not LRM grouping makes them useless or ridiculous. For one, they need arcs for direct fire and indirect fire, instead of trying to make one arc that does both jobs. For direct fire, a fast, flat arc that doesn't give a target 15-20 seconds to hit cover, but without stupidly-narrow fire groupings (maybe 40/30/30 spread across 3 panels, with the closest panel to the shooter taking most of the damage). For indirect fire, a slower, loftier arc, where the missiles hit some altitude above the target and then drop downward with more scatter, but better chance to hit the mech in general.

Giving people the option to toggle means they've got LRMs that work for both serious direct combat and hitting people behind cover with a spotter. The current mix of low speed and a crappy arc makes LRMs way too situational under the best of circumstances; let people control the missile behavior in response to those circumstances and maybe we'll start seeing builds somewhere between "LRMs are dumb, don't have any" and "fifty million LRMs because that's how many you need".

EDIT: And just to make sure, I jumped on Training Grounds with non-Artemis LRM5 and LRM10 and double Artemis LRM20. Artemis or not, LRMs are showing an aggressiveness in targeting CTs that is almost identical to streaks. And with Artemis, the trait is even worse; a triple salvo of Artemis LRM20 cores the Training Ground Atlas without even stripping the side torso sections of armor.

EDIT EDIT: Holy shit, even DUMBFIRING LRMs causes the damage to hit the CT almost exclusively. Double Artemis LRM20 to the arm and side torso of an Atlas with no lock at all? The Atlas STILL ends up cored before a single other component gets stripped of armor, even with the CT taking not more than one or two direct hits a salvo.

Yeah, LRMs are ABSOLUTELY still in a busted state, we just don't see it because PPCs are way more broken.

First of all, your first problem is the Jager, a mech that has a pretty straight forward open CT and ST's, which has the same problem as a CPT, while in comparison, I can torso twist quite efficiently in my Highlander and DRG's and CN9's and essentially not give two fucks about LRM's hitting my CT.

2nd, You tested on the training grounds, that is extremely skeptical because Training Ground mechs to begin with are quite frankly, not worthy as proof. In addition you tested in a environment that I specifically stated above. "If you stand still and take a volley, of course it's going to hit center mass, but if you are moving it will hit you appropriately." Training Ground testing is not very efficient nor does it rarely give accurate results to real world gameplay.

Finally, once again, you are testing against a non-moving mech, something that is once again, of course going to take full CT damage when you don't do anything to mitigate it. I can personally tell you that torso twisting in ANY AS7 will in-fact allow your CT to be safe at the expense of whatever side you decide to give up.

It doesn't matter how much you'd like to dismiss repeatable, legitimate results, the fact is that the LRM targeting/damage code is fucked up. Hitting an Atlas in the side torso without locking on SHOULD NOT be dealing the majority of the damage to the CT. Ever. And dismissing the Training Ground mechs as targets as unreliable is pure goosery; the Training Ground stock Atlas has ninety-fucking-four armor on the CT (also verifiable fact) and around 60 on the side torsos, which means that any missiles striking the side torso should break those sections long, long before the CT goes. Instead, the exact opposite happens, with both homing and dumbfire shots. It takes around 120 damage to break the CT of the Training Ground Atlas D (also verified), and 5 Artemis LRM20 salvos will guarantee a coring without breaking either side torso section, which means that upwards of 90% of that damage is hitting the CT. That's pretty broken.

Shit, you can shoot mechs in the legs with dumbfire LRMs and the CT still soaks up a huge amount of the damage. You can core mechs from behind with LRMs right now. Saying that it doesn't count because the mechs aren't moving is flat ridiculous, because they don't even need to be looking at you to get cored by LRMs.

And why the hell should LRMs be hitting just the CT just because something is standing still? That doesn't make any sense at all, because the shooter is still doing nothing to deal that CT damage. And the LRMs perform the exact same way whether the shooter is moving or not; a moving target isn't going to matter unless it's with a light, because the LRMs are dealing the wrong damage the EXACT same way regardless of where they're hitting on the front of a mech.

LRMs are operating on broken code. Period. End of story. This is verifiable fact; you don't even have a theoretical leg to stand on here. The only reason PPCs are winning the OP metagame right now is because they don't get stopped by ECM, they don't have to deal with lock time, and PGI dropped LRM damage enough so that it takes more than a volley to kill most mechs. But the code that was making LRMs broken? Still absolutely broken, it's just broken with lower damage values.

This isn't even a debate. This is somebody trying to argue that the sky is any color other than blue.

I can not agree on evidence that can be reproduced in Testing Grounds but not in-game. It is not goosery, you are playing in a controlled environment, which is of course going to give you different outcomes compared to real game statistics. I can not reproduce the results you are getting in Testing Grounds (Which i agree I get to in Testing Grounds) compared to real games. Of course it can happen on certain mechs such as Jager or the CPT but thats the way they are designed. I can torso twist on other mechs and not get any CT damage at from LRM's. This is including AS7's, DRG's, CN9's, and HGN's.

The code may be broken, I don't deny that, but that doesn't mean it's causing the problems you're explaining in-game. I agree it does happen on Testing Grounds, but I cannot get that in in-game normal matches. Even if i stand still and just torso twist i will still take minimum damage in the appropriate mech.

And yes, evidence thats from a testing ground aka a controlled environment that can't be reproduced in-game normal matches is sketchy.

Spectrum

Ninja, I cannot believe you are crying about someone using LRMs doing 'nothing' to deal CT damage. In a real game, that requires Tag and Artemis in order for the majority of those missiles to actually hit a moving target and really needs Target Decay and Sensor Range modules and probably wants a BAP on top of that. Oh, and really could use a spotter mech.

And the targeted mech has to not get in cover in the meantime or torso twist away the damage. Or have an ECM mech facehug the LRM mech.

And ironically just to top all of that off? Shutting down due to overheating still means you can't get a lock to fire LRMs on the target. You can dumbfire on the position, but missile in air won't correct for the mech moving and home in.

Ninja Snarl P

Spectrum wrote: »

Ninja, I cannot believe you are crying about someone using LRMs doing 'nothing' to deal CT damage. In a real game, that requires Tag and Artemis in order for the majority of those missiles to actually hit a moving target and really needs Target Decay and Sensor Range modules and probably wants a BAP on top of that. Oh, and really could use a spotter mech.

And the targeted mech has to not get in cover in the meantime or torso twist away the damage. Or have an ECM mech facehug the LRM mech.

I really think you're completely underestimating just how much LRM damage is going for the CT right now. They've got the exact same behavior as when they were really bad, they just have their damage bumped down somewhat. The core issue is that LRM damage should not be targeting the CT almost exclusively, just like streaks shouldn't, and they are. With or without Artemis, better than 90% of that damage is hitting the CT, even from 15-20 degrees behind a target. Even at 90 degrees off to the side of a target, a target might lose all the arm armor before the CT gets destroyed, which is ludicrous. And that's only with mechs that have decent-sized arms and humanoid torsos; anything with a CT that sticks out gets cored long before anything else goes. This is seriously, honestly, not-intended behavior, because missile splattering all over the front of a mech should not be focusing 90%+ of their damage on the CT. PGI didn't fix the missile bugs, they simply adjusted the missile damage so the bug was less of a problem. The problem just doesn't look as bad because, visually, the missiles are scattering decently; in terms of damage, they absolutely are not.

Oh, and the Artemis is largely superfluous for that CT damage. It increases it, but stock-standard LRMs will core the hell out of targets only somewhat worse than Artemis missiles will.

And ironically just to top all of that off? Shutting down due to overheating still means you can't get a lock to fire LRMs on the target. You can dumbfire on the position, but missile in air won't correct for the mech moving and home in.

Except the dumbfire isn't spreading out the damage from a non-lock firing. Hitting a mech with LRMs deals major CT-focused damage, whether or not the LRMs are actually hitting the CT. In other words, you can core a shut-down mech with LRMs, without ever aiming at the CT a single time. You can a mech exclusively in the legs and the CT will take serious damage. So if you splatter LRMs across the side of a mech that's shut down, it's the center torso that takes the vast majority of the damage. That just doesn't make any sense at all, in terms of balance or code.

On top of all that, hitting a mech with LRMs is no way an achievement. Every other weapon in the game requires real aim to hit important parts of a mech, whereas LRMs require aiming in the general vicinity of a mech. There's simply no justification for LRMs dealing the CT damage they do for the effort that takes. Now, choosing when to fire is important, but actually hitting a mech with LRMs if you've got a clear shot is easier than with any other weapon in the game. And with that in mind, it's completely silly to expect that LRMs should be competing with the likes AC/20s and gauss rifles, when the only one of those requiring accurate aim are the non-missile weapons. If it required TAG to hit the CT reliably, that's something I could see as reasonable, but you don't need TAG at all for that.

And do keep in mind that I'm not saying that LRMs a huge problem right now. They clearly are not the major balance issue right now, and I'm not even attempting to refute that. However, when BAP gets better, ECM gets worse, and PPCs get balanced, were going to go right back to LRMs being overpowered (though not LRMaggeddon overpowered), because a Stalker with quad LRM15s will be handily coring Atlases in a couple salvos because of where all that damage ends up. Unless the Atlas is walking backwards, its CT will be soaking up ridiculous amounts of damage from a weapon that requires nothing more than keeping a crosshair generally near it.

I definitely want LRMs to be good for more than just boating, but they're just all kinds of fucked up right now, and not just in terms of not getting proper design attention.

Spectrum

Ninja Snarl P wrote: »

Spectrum wrote: »

Ninja, I cannot believe you are crying about someone using LRMs doing 'nothing' to deal CT damage. In a real game, that requires Tag and Artemis in order for the majority of those missiles to actually hit a moving target and really needs Target Decay and Sensor Range modules and probably wants a BAP on top of that. Oh, and really could use a spotter mech.

And the targeted mech has to not get in cover in the meantime or torso twist away the damage. Or have an ECM mech facehug the LRM mech.

I really think you're completely underestimating just how much LRM damage is going for the CT right now. They've got the exact same behavior as when they were really bad, they just have their damage bumped down somewhat. The core issue is that LRM damage should not be targeting the CT almost exclusively, just like streaks shouldn't, and they are. With or without Artemis, better than 90% of that damage is hitting the CT, even from 15-20 degrees behind a target. Even at 90 degrees off to the side of a target, a target might lose all the arm armor before the CT gets destroyed, which is ludicrous. And that's only with mechs that have decent-sized arms and humanoid torsos; anything with a CT that sticks out gets cored long before anything else goes. This is seriously, honestly, not-intended behavior, because missile splattering all over the front of a mech should not be focusing 90%+ of their damage on the CT. PGI didn't fix the missile bugs, they simply adjusted the missile damage so the bug was less of a problem. The problem just doesn't look as bad because, visually, the missiles are scattering decently; in terms of damage, they absolutely are not.

Oh, and the Artemis is largely superfluous for that CT damage. It increases it, but stock-standard LRMs will core the hell out of targets only somewhat worse than Artemis missiles will.

I'm not, I have a couple LRM mechs that I use when I want to be relatively ineffective. You completely missed the point of my post.

LRM mechs have to take alot of other things in addition to just equipping LRMs. You need Artemis and Tag or else the missiles spread so much that at least half of them will miss a moving target.

Ninja Snarl P wrote: »

And ironically just to top all of that off? Shutting down due to overheating still means you can't get a lock to fire LRMs on the target. You can dumbfire on the position, but missile in air won't correct for the mech moving and home in.

Except the dumbfire isn't spreading out the damage from a non-lock firing. Hitting a mech with LRMs deals major CT-focused damage, whether or not the LRMs are actually hitting the CT. In other words, you can core a shut-down mech with LRMs, without ever aiming at the CT a single time. You can a mech exclusively in the legs and the CT will take serious damage. So if you splatter LRMs across the side of a mech that's shut down, it's the center torso that takes the vast majority of the damage. That just doesn't make any sense at all, in terms of balance or code.

On top of all that, hitting a mech with LRMs is no way an achievement. Every other weapon in the game requires real aim to hit important parts of a mech, whereas LRMs require aiming in the general vicinity of a mech. There's simply no justification for LRMs dealing the CT damage they do for the effort that takes. Now, choosing when to fire is important, but actually hitting a mech with LRMs if you've got a clear shot is easier than with any other weapon in the game. And with that in mind, it's completely silly to expect that LRMs should be competing with the likes AC/20s and gauss rifles, when the only one of those requiring accurate aim are the non-missile weapons. If it required TAG to hit the CT reliably, that's something I could see as reasonable, but you don't need TAG at all for that.

And do keep in mind that I'm not saying that LRMs a huge problem right now. They clearly are not the major balance issue right now, and I'm not even attempting to refute that. However, when BAP gets better, ECM gets worse, and PPCs get balanced, were going to go right back to LRMs being overpowered (though not LRMaggeddon overpowered), because a Stalker with quad LRM15s will be handily coring Atlases in a couple salvos because of where all that damage ends up. Unless the Atlas is walking backwards, its CT will be soaking up ridiculous amounts of damage from a weapon that requires nothing more than keeping a crosshair generally near it.

I definitely want LRMs to be good for more than just boating, but they're just all kinds of fucked up right now, and not just in terms of not getting proper design attention.

No, again you missed the point. There is literally no point in firing on a shutdown mech because the missiles will not home. The mech will power up and move off the spot long, long before whatever missiles were on the way actually connect.

You don't actually use LRMs if you think hitting a mech with a worthwhile number of them is easy. Good luck maintaining a lock on a target you can hit with LRMs (ie not already behind cover and ideally within Tag range) without getting your face shot off. You're completely trivializing the state of "having and maintaining a clear shot".

Ninja Snarl P

Spectrum wrote: »

Ninja Snarl P wrote: »

Spectrum wrote: »

Ninja, I cannot believe you are crying about someone using LRMs doing 'nothing' to deal CT damage. In a real game, that requires Tag and Artemis in order for the majority of those missiles to actually hit a moving target and really needs Target Decay and Sensor Range modules and probably wants a BAP on top of that. Oh, and really could use a spotter mech.

And the targeted mech has to not get in cover in the meantime or torso twist away the damage. Or have an ECM mech facehug the LRM mech.

I really think you're completely underestimating just how much LRM damage is going for the CT right now. They've got the exact same behavior as when they were really bad, they just have their damage bumped down somewhat. The core issue is that LRM damage should not be targeting the CT almost exclusively, just like streaks shouldn't, and they are. With or without Artemis, better than 90% of that damage is hitting the CT, even from 15-20 degrees behind a target. Even at 90 degrees off to the side of a target, a target might lose all the arm armor before the CT gets destroyed, which is ludicrous. And that's only with mechs that have decent-sized arms and humanoid torsos; anything with a CT that sticks out gets cored long before anything else goes. This is seriously, honestly, not-intended behavior, because missile splattering all over the front of a mech should not be focusing 90%+ of their damage on the CT. PGI didn't fix the missile bugs, they simply adjusted the missile damage so the bug was less of a problem. The problem just doesn't look as bad because, visually, the missiles are scattering decently; in terms of damage, they absolutely are not.

Oh, and the Artemis is largely superfluous for that CT damage. It increases it, but stock-standard LRMs will core the hell out of targets only somewhat worse than Artemis missiles will.

I'm not, I have a couple LRM mechs that I use when I want to be relatively ineffective. You completely missed the point of my post.

LRM mechs have to take alot of other things in addition to just equipping LRMs. You need Artemis and Tag or else the missiles spread so much that at least half of them will miss a moving target.

Ninja Snarl P wrote: »

And ironically just to top all of that off? Shutting down due to overheating still means you can't get a lock to fire LRMs on the target. You can dumbfire on the position, but missile in air won't correct for the mech moving and home in.

Except the dumbfire isn't spreading out the damage from a non-lock firing. Hitting a mech with LRMs deals major CT-focused damage, whether or not the LRMs are actually hitting the CT. In other words, you can core a shut-down mech with LRMs, without ever aiming at the CT a single time. You can a mech exclusively in the legs and the CT will take serious damage. So if you splatter LRMs across the side of a mech that's shut down, it's the center torso that takes the vast majority of the damage. That just doesn't make any sense at all, in terms of balance or code.

On top of all that, hitting a mech with LRMs is no way an achievement. Every other weapon in the game requires real aim to hit important parts of a mech, whereas LRMs require aiming in the general vicinity of a mech. There's simply no justification for LRMs dealing the CT damage they do for the effort that takes. Now, choosing when to fire is important, but actually hitting a mech with LRMs if you've got a clear shot is easier than with any other weapon in the game. And with that in mind, it's completely silly to expect that LRMs should be competing with the likes AC/20s and gauss rifles, when the only one of those requiring accurate aim are the non-missile weapons. If it required TAG to hit the CT reliably, that's something I could see as reasonable, but you don't need TAG at all for that.

And do keep in mind that I'm not saying that LRMs a huge problem right now. They clearly are not the major balance issue right now, and I'm not even attempting to refute that. However, when BAP gets better, ECM gets worse, and PPCs get balanced, were going to go right back to LRMs being overpowered (though not LRMaggeddon overpowered), because a Stalker with quad LRM15s will be handily coring Atlases in a couple salvos because of where all that damage ends up. Unless the Atlas is walking backwards, its CT will be soaking up ridiculous amounts of damage from a weapon that requires nothing more than keeping a crosshair generally near it.

I definitely want LRMs to be good for more than just boating, but they're just all kinds of fucked up right now, and not just in terms of not getting proper design attention.

No, again you missed the point. There is literally no point in firing on a shutdown mech because the missiles will not home. The mech will power up and move off the spot long, long before whatever missiles were on the way actually connect.

You don't actually use LRMs if you think hitting a mech with a worthwhile number of them is easy. Good luck maintaining a lock on a target you can hit with LRMs (ie not already behind cover and ideally within Tag range) without getting your face shot off. You're completely trivializing the state of "having and maintaining a clear shot".

And I'm not talking about LRMs being too easy to use right now. I wouldn't even bother trying LRM mechs right now to examine the problem, because I have no taste for having my face shot off while waiting for missiles to hit a target. When that's not such a huge PPC problem and we don't have assault mechs popping up and dropping out of sight to unload their armament before missiles can do anything, LRMs are going to have be revisited for balance because their current hit code is horribly messed up. And I said as much, by repeatedly stating that LRMs aren't a problem right now because the PPC issues completely overwhelm the problem.

And again, the issue is more of when to shoot than aiming to hit something when it comes to LRMs. A weapon that requires simply looking at a target to hit it should not be dealing CT-crippling damage. But right now, there are practically zero good LRM firing moments in matches because PPCs just shred the LRM user long before the missiles can hit the target. Regardless, LRMs should simply never automatically focus on hitting the most vital section of a mech by default; it's simply not the role of the weapon, and it doesn't take much user effort to make it happen. Pick the right time to launch, watch the target, loads of vital damage; it's absolutely begging to be abused if it stays like that.

There's a fat stack of good ways to balance LRMs and make them good combat weapons, but leaving the current LRM code as CT-stripping and adjusting damage is a shitty, lazy route. They need to go way, way up in speed, at the very least, but they also need to get proper spread back. The way they are now is ripe for trouble as soon as people can start looking over ridges again without getting vaporized down to a pair of large metal feet. Hopefully PGI is aware of that and they'll make the appropriate changes to the hit pattern at the same time they buff the LRMs, because buffing LRMs while they still focus CTs like this is going to wreck the game balance immediately.

LRMs are a pending problem, not a current one. Sorry if that was ambiguous somehow.

BillGates

Ninja Snarl P wrote: »

Spectrum wrote: »

Ninja Snarl P wrote: »

Spectrum wrote: »

Ninja, I cannot believe you are crying about someone using LRMs doing 'nothing' to deal CT damage. In a real game, that requires Tag and Artemis in order for the majority of those missiles to actually hit a moving target and really needs Target Decay and Sensor Range modules and probably wants a BAP on top of that. Oh, and really could use a spotter mech.

And the targeted mech has to not get in cover in the meantime or torso twist away the damage. Or have an ECM mech facehug the LRM mech.

I really think you're completely underestimating just how much LRM damage is going for the CT right now. They've got the exact same behavior as when they were really bad, they just have their damage bumped down somewhat. The core issue is that LRM damage should not be targeting the CT almost exclusively, just like streaks shouldn't, and they are. With or without Artemis, better than 90% of that damage is hitting the CT, even from 15-20 degrees behind a target. Even at 90 degrees off to the side of a target, a target might lose all the arm armor before the CT gets destroyed, which is ludicrous. And that's only with mechs that have decent-sized arms and humanoid torsos; anything with a CT that sticks out gets cored long before anything else goes. This is seriously, honestly, not-intended behavior, because missile splattering all over the front of a mech should not be focusing 90%+ of their damage on the CT. PGI didn't fix the missile bugs, they simply adjusted the missile damage so the bug was less of a problem. The problem just doesn't look as bad because, visually, the missiles are scattering decently; in terms of damage, they absolutely are not.

Oh, and the Artemis is largely superfluous for that CT damage. It increases it, but stock-standard LRMs will core the hell out of targets only somewhat worse than Artemis missiles will.

I'm not, I have a couple LRM mechs that I use when I want to be relatively ineffective. You completely missed the point of my post.

LRM mechs have to take alot of other things in addition to just equipping LRMs. You need Artemis and Tag or else the missiles spread so much that at least half of them will miss a moving target.

Ninja Snarl P wrote: »

And ironically just to top all of that off? Shutting down due to overheating still means you can't get a lock to fire LRMs on the target. You can dumbfire on the position, but missile in air won't correct for the mech moving and home in.

Except the dumbfire isn't spreading out the damage from a non-lock firing. Hitting a mech with LRMs deals major CT-focused damage, whether or not the LRMs are actually hitting the CT. In other words, you can core a shut-down mech with LRMs, without ever aiming at the CT a single time. You can a mech exclusively in the legs and the CT will take serious damage. So if you splatter LRMs across the side of a mech that's shut down, it's the center torso that takes the vast majority of the damage. That just doesn't make any sense at all, in terms of balance or code.

On top of all that, hitting a mech with LRMs is no way an achievement. Every other weapon in the game requires real aim to hit important parts of a mech, whereas LRMs require aiming in the general vicinity of a mech. There's simply no justification for LRMs dealing the CT damage they do for the effort that takes. Now, choosing when to fire is important, but actually hitting a mech with LRMs if you've got a clear shot is easier than with any other weapon in the game. And with that in mind, it's completely silly to expect that LRMs should be competing with the likes AC/20s and gauss rifles, when the only one of those requiring accurate aim are the non-missile weapons. If it required TAG to hit the CT reliably, that's something I could see as reasonable, but you don't need TAG at all for that.

And do keep in mind that I'm not saying that LRMs a huge problem right now. They clearly are not the major balance issue right now, and I'm not even attempting to refute that. However, when BAP gets better, ECM gets worse, and PPCs get balanced, were going to go right back to LRMs being overpowered (though not LRMaggeddon overpowered), because a Stalker with quad LRM15s will be handily coring Atlases in a couple salvos because of where all that damage ends up. Unless the Atlas is walking backwards, its CT will be soaking up ridiculous amounts of damage from a weapon that requires nothing more than keeping a crosshair generally near it.

I definitely want LRMs to be good for more than just boating, but they're just all kinds of fucked up right now, and not just in terms of not getting proper design attention.

No, again you missed the point. There is literally no point in firing on a shutdown mech because the missiles will not home. The mech will power up and move off the spot long, long before whatever missiles were on the way actually connect.

You don't actually use LRMs if you think hitting a mech with a worthwhile number of them is easy. Good luck maintaining a lock on a target you can hit with LRMs (ie not already behind cover and ideally within Tag range) without getting your face shot off. You're completely trivializing the state of "having and maintaining a clear shot".

And I'm not talking about LRMs being too easy to use right now. I wouldn't even bother trying LRM mechs right now to examine the problem, because I have no taste for having my face shot off while waiting for missiles to hit a target. When that's not such a huge PPC problem and we don't have assault mechs popping up and dropping out of sight to unload their armament before missiles can do anything, LRMs are going to have be revisited for balance because their current hit code is horribly messed up. And I said as much, by repeatedly stating that LRMs aren't a problem right now because the PPC issues completely overwhelm the problem.

And again, the issue is more of when to shoot than aiming to hit something when it comes to LRMs. A weapon that requires simply looking at a target to hit it should not be dealing CT-crippling damage. But right now, there are practically zero good LRM firing moments in matches because PPCs just shred the LRM user long before the missiles can hit the target. Regardless, LRMs should simply never automatically focus on hitting the most vital section of a mech by default; it's simply not the role of the weapon, and it doesn't take much user effort to make it happen. Pick the right time to launch, watch the target, loads of vital damage; it's absolutely begging to be abused if it stays like that.

There's a fat stack of good ways to balance LRMs and make them good combat weapons, but leaving the current LRM code as CT-stripping and adjusting damage is a shitty, lazy route. They need to go way, way up in speed, at the very least, but they also need to get proper spread back. The way they are now is ripe for trouble as soon as people can start looking over ridges again without getting vaporized down to a pair of large metal feet. Hopefully PGI is aware of that and they'll make the appropriate changes to the hit pattern at the same time they buff the LRMs, because buffing LRMs while they still focus CTs like this is going to wreck the game balance immediately.

LRMs are a pending problem, not a current one. Sorry if that was ambiguous somehow.

You are arguing about something that is probably going to be changed, both in balance and in mechanics. PGI has already said missile mechanics are being changed, but the problem is the way you are describing them as of right now is completely wrong.

You are in this current patch able to torso twist and distribute the damage to something that isn't your CT. It is easier to do on certain mechs then others, this is a given because of the way mech chassis are designed.

I honestly don't care if you can core a AS7 in Testing Grounds with LRM's because I literally just played a game on Forest, sat in the river, and had LRM's rain on me in my AS7-RS, and you know what? I torso twisted, and lost an arm and a ST before my core. You are testing in a controlled environment. You cannot, and i repeat cannot, reproduce the same effects in normal games unless you play like those dummy mechs. Those enemy mechs also had Artemis or a TAG/NARC on me because the LRM's spiraled.

LRM's do probably go for the CT you're right, and i never said they didn't, but it's entirely manageable pending you don't play like a test bot in the Testing Grounds.

So as i stated in my initial post, if you stand still and let the volleys hit you without trying to torso twist then yes they will hit you in the CT, but you can mitigate the damage, by torso twisting AND OR moving.

EDIT - TL;DR

SSRM's will ALWAYS hit the CT regardless of torso twisting or moving or otherwise performing a maneuver to attempt to counter the SSRM's, LRM's will NOT always hit the CT provided you take the proper counter-measures.

Bastable

Oh wow.

I am super unlucky, got a 7970 card on the cheap so can actually run this game. I am of course cock blocked by missing textures and invisible/shadow mechs. Which is apparently a new bug introduced by the latests patch. MW fix of course does nothing for me.

Sad is not the word but it is the first thing that comes to mind.

Ninja Snarl P

Bastable wrote: »

Oh wow.

I am super unlucky, got a 7970 card on the cheap so can actually run this game. I am of course cock blocked by missing textures and invisible/shadow mechs. Which is apparently a new bug introduced by the latests patch. MW fix of course does nothing for me.

Sad is not the word but it is the first thing that comes to mind.

Eh, right now isn't the super-best time for getting into MWO anyway. A week after this next Tuesday is the next patch day, so they might have a fix for that along with (finally) a gameplay patch that will take the game back to something other than Total Waste of Time for new players. This would be a really awful time to learn, unless you're lucky enough to only be on when plenty of Oosiks are around.

Are you CONSTANTLY getting invisible/shadow mechs, though? I've had that issue a few times, but it was always intermittent and never consistent or permanent.

hjparcins

LRMs do try to hit CT. They should do that; why wouldn't a guided missile go for center mass?

So if a mech is completely immobile, e.g. in training grounds, the missile has all the time in the world to maneuver and position to hit CT. But in a real fight, when a mech could be running over 100 kph and twisting all over, only a handful are going to find their way to CT. It's not every missile like SSRMs.

I mean, I've taken off arms and legs with LRMs in the past couple weeks. I've never done that with SSRMs. If you're standing on a hill sniping in a Jager or Cat and you don't hop behind a hill the second you see 40 LRMs streaming your way from across the map, you deserve to get cored in one volley. But even that isn't going to happen, because 40 LRMs only do 28 damage, which is not that devastating an alpha.

heckels

Bastable wrote: »

Oh wow.

I am super unlucky, got a 7970 card on the cheap so can actually run this game. I am of course cock blocked by missing textures and invisible/shadow mechs. Which is apparently a new bug introduced by the latests patch. MW fix of course does nothing for me.

Sad is not the word but it is the first thing that comes to mind.

I had to uuninstall/reinstall the game and run the repair tool...I still get some texture issues on frozen city's terrain though

TOGSolid

It's worth noting that if you mention that you tested a bug on the training grounds, support will ask specifically if you have seen it in live games as well so the two definitely don't line up 100%.

Also, do remember that PGI has specifically said that they have a new missile system in testing along with the missile HSR. I dunno why anyone is wasting energy arguing about missiles until after the next patch.

I get home tomorrow!

Nips

Ok, Lords of All Things Dakka, I need some advice.

Preface: This is not for SRZ BZNS. I have a tricked-out 3L for that. This is for pissing around, just for the hell of it. But I want to not suck completely when I'm slumming.

I've been wrestling with a reasonable build for my neglected RVN-4X. It seems a shame to let those ballistic hardpoints go to waste.
(Yes, I know, boo hiss spit raven pilot go home, blah blah blah)

Here's some things I've tried or theorycrafted. All builds try to leave two tons for a pair of MLs, because I'm too chicken to take this 100%.

2xAC2 build - A punchy, long distance harasser, but seems to run out of ammo relatively quickly. Maybe a minute or so of constant fire? I think I'd like to just plink people to shake them up. Should I not be firing them linked if all I care about is cockpit-shaking my targets? In which case, why bother with two AC2's?

1xAC20 - Because one-trick ponies need love too (even though I'm hedging with lasers). But what to do about the relative lack of ammo? I think I managed to cram three tons of ammo in one build, but don't feel like it's enough.

1xAC10 - Trying real hard to be it's big brother AC20, but hedging for more space for....anything else. But if I'm flinging 10-point damage chunks, why not just go all PPCWarrior and never run out of ammo? Also, doesn't annoy like it's little brothers, and doesn't have the wollop of it's big brother, so....

1xUAC5 - First trigger pull, to damn near out of ammo in like thirty seconds? Is this even remotely workable?

1xLB10X - I juuuuust tried this build in Training Grounds last night, and fired an LBX for the first time. KABLAM is fun, and the ammo seems pretty plentiful...but how do you use this thing? The spread seems crazy.

I'm pretty sure most all of this could be addressed with a change in thinking, but I need a nudge here. My usual tactics (mostly panicking) don't feel like they'd hold up.

Kay

Pssst. Nips.

Gaslight

AC/10 is pretty bad.

LB-10X is even worse, bordering on useless. It's supposed to get its spread narrowed soon so hopefully that will help. Really though I don't see it ever being that great unless the component critical hit system is better implemented. If that happened and you could switch ammo types like in the tabletop that would be pretty sweet but I can't see PGI ever doing it, even though it doesn't seem like it would be that hard.

Spectrum

Gaslight wrote: »

AC/10 is pretty bad right now. LB-10X is even worse, bordering on useless. It's supposed to get its spread narrowed soon so hopefully that will help.

AC/10 is really only good for skirmishing or sniping, but it's pretty good in its role. LB-10X is a little questionable, but if you really, really, really only care about point blank damage it's worth a certain level of consideration.

Scouts can mount the LB and shove it into the back of something and pull the trigger effectively if you want to go that route, but it is a bit heavy.

Kay

LB10X has its place, but will be much better with a revamped crit system and a tighter spread, it's true.

However. I ran an LB10X 2xMPL 2xSSRM2 TBT-7K with a maxed engine and speed tweak, and was very, VERY adept and just beating the shit out of lights in it. The LB10X is excellent for that.

Elimination

heckels wrote: »

Bastable wrote: »

Oh wow.

I am super unlucky, got a 7970 card on the cheap so can actually run this game. I am of course cock blocked by missing textures and invisible/shadow mechs. Which is apparently a new bug introduced by the latests patch. MW fix of course does nothing for me.

Sad is not the word but it is the first thing that comes to mind.

I had to uuninstall/reinstall the game and run the repair tool...I still get some texture issues on frozen city's terrain though

I've had those frozen city issues since closed beta. Welcome to the AMD club.

Spectrum

Kay wrote: »

LB10X has its place, but will be much better with a revamped crit system and a tighter spread, it's true.

However. I ran an LB10X 2xMPL 2xSSRM2 TBT-7K with a maxed engine and speed tweak, and was very, VERY adept and just beating the shit out of lights in it. The LB10X is excellent for that.

That's honestly probably more the SSRM talking there and the fact that the TBT has a bit of an easier time shielding its CT with its arms against return SSRM...

Campy

Elimination wrote: »

heckels wrote: »

Bastable wrote: »

Oh wow.

I am super unlucky, got a 7970 card on the cheap so can actually run this game. I am of course cock blocked by missing textures and invisible/shadow mechs. Which is apparently a new bug introduced by the latests patch. MW fix of course does nothing for me.

Sad is not the word but it is the first thing that comes to mind.

I had to uuninstall/reinstall the game and run the repair tool...I still get some texture issues on frozen city's terrain though

I've had those frozen city issues since closed beta. Welcome to the AMD club.

Yeah, that map really hates being pretty. Weird how it's so intermittent in it's lack of texturing.

TheCanMan

Spectrum wrote: »

Kay wrote: »

LB10X has its place, but will be much better with a revamped crit system and a tighter spread, it's true.

However. I ran an LB10X 2xMPL 2xSSRM2 TBT-7K with a maxed engine and speed tweak, and was very, VERY adept and just beating the shit out of lights in it. The LB10X is excellent for that.

That's honestly probably more the SSRM talking there and the fact that the TBT has a bit of an easier time shielding its CT with its arms against return SSRM...

AvalonGuard

TheCanMan wrote: »

Spectrum wrote: »

Kay wrote: »

LB10X has its place, but will be much better with a revamped crit system and a tighter spread, it's true.

However. I ran an LB10X 2xMPL 2xSSRM2 TBT-7K with a maxed engine and speed tweak, and was very, VERY adept and just beating the shit out of lights in it. The LB10X is excellent for that.

That's honestly probably more the SSRM talking there and the fact that the TBT has a bit of an easier time shielding its CT with its arms against return SSRM...

... To clarify, SSRMS don't care one bit about intervening parts on their glorious crusade against center torsos.

Gaslight

Elimination wrote: »

heckels wrote: »

Bastable wrote: »

Oh wow.

I am super unlucky, got a 7970 card on the cheap so can actually run this game. I am of course cock blocked by missing textures and invisible/shadow mechs. Which is apparently a new bug introduced by the latests patch. MW fix of course does nothing for me.

Sad is not the word but it is the first thing that comes to mind.

I had to uuninstall/reinstall the game and run the repair tool...I still get some texture issues on frozen city's terrain though

I've had those frozen city issues since closed beta. Welcome to the AMD club.

Frozen city night's problems aren't an AMD thing, I get the same thing with my Nvidia GTX670.

Edit: Maybe that wasn't what you meant.

Orick

Lbx is really great for legging lights and that's about it.Kablameister is one of my favorite mech right now but it has 4 mlas to burn armour and 2 lbx to crit.For your raven, I think 1 ac20 with all the ammo you can carry would be most fun.
Just keep flanking.

TOGSolid

You've gotta be a special brand of crazy to get the AC20 to work, but the guys who are good at it do some scary shit with it. I'd just go with that until we see how the LBX and MG buffs play out.

TOGSolid

CHECK BRYAN EKMAN'S TWITTER GUYS: The flamer is getting super buffed. AAAAAAAAGH!

Gaslight

Yeah I think all things considered if you want a "Silly, but maybe enjoyable and occasionally effective" build you go with the AC/20.

AC/2's would be my second choice.

AC/10 and LBX are not really recommended for reasons already discussed, and one Ultra AC/5 will just not do a significant amount of damage to anybody, especially since it'll probably be jammed half the time...

TheCanMan

TOGSolid wrote: »

CHECK BRYAN EKMAN'S TWITTER GUYS: The flamer is getting super buffed. AAAAAAAAGH!

Depending on what their definition of "super buffed" is, this will very likely force me to finally get a -4P.

Gaslight

Let us recall that there was a brief period during closed beta where flamers were actually fairly OP.

HydroSqueegee

TheCanMan wrote: »

TOGSolid wrote: »

CHECK BRYAN EKMAN'S TWITTER GUYS: The flamer is getting super buffed. AAAAAAAAGH!

Depending on what their definition of "super buffed" is, this will very likely force me to finally get a -4P.

2 4Ps... 18 flamers... yeaaaaaaa......

I'm actually down for this right now

Kay

AvalonGuard wrote: »

TheCanMan wrote: »

Spectrum wrote: »

Kay wrote: »

LB10X has its place, but will be much better with a revamped crit system and a tighter spread, it's true.

However. I ran an LB10X 2xMPL 2xSSRM2 TBT-7K with a maxed engine and speed tweak, and was very, VERY adept and just beating the shit out of lights in it. The LB10X is excellent for that.

That's honestly probably more the SSRM talking there and the fact that the TBT has a bit of an easier time shielding its CT with its arms against return SSRM...

... To clarify, SSRMS don't care one bit about intervening parts on their glorious crusade against center torsos.

Yup. It's the combination of fast pulse damage, streaks, and SPACE SHOTGUN that lights hate. LB10X is just super strong against lights. So easy to hit them with one.

3clipse

[HBK-4P]: 9xLAME, 260STD, DHS, Endo

BURN BABY BURN

COCKPIT INFERNO

TheCanMan

I'm naming mine The Broiler.

TheCanMan

If we don't run at least one troll-lance of 36 flamers, I will be very disappointed in us.

Gaslight

LAME TIMES NINE

VedicIntent

TOGSolid wrote: »

It's worth noting that if you mention that you tested a bug on the training grounds, support will ask specifically if you have seen it in live games as well so the two definitely don't line up 100%.

Also, do remember that PGI has specifically said that they have a new missile system in testing along with the missile HSR. I dunno why anyone is wasting energy arguing about missiles until after the next patch.

I get home tomorrow!

Missile damage does really weird things, though, and PGI's "fixes" just make it act weirder. I think this came up before in an older thread. Case in point: They scrapped the idea of removing splash entirely (in favor of nerfing damage across the board) because splashless missiles would magically applied all damage to CT - a dev flat-out said they had no idea why. I hope the automated QA process helps get them a better grip on game mechanics.

Also, there's a known bug in which all missile damage can spontaneously apply to a single CT section for no reason. I've had back CTs blown out with a single volley hit from the front, and this was pre-LeRMaggeddon. Missiles are just kind of off right now.

m!ttens

Even with the Flamer buff, the target sadly won't go over 90% heat (until it fires a weapon), so maybe 7 flamers and 2 LPLAS would be best. Or more likely 3 Flamers and 6 MLAS.

Though maybe if/when they start implementing heat damage at levels below "override and be above 100%" (because being at 90% heat and shooting 6 PPCs should flash fry the pilot) we'll start seeing internal damage, ammo cookoff and more sluggish turning/movement.

CycloneRanger

Kay wrote: »

AvalonGuard wrote: »

TheCanMan wrote: »

Spectrum wrote: »

Kay wrote: »

LB10X has its place, but will be much better with a revamped crit system and a tighter spread, it's true.

However. I ran an LB10X 2xMPL 2xSSRM2 TBT-7K with a maxed engine and speed tweak, and was very, VERY adept and just beating the shit out of lights in it. The LB10X is excellent for that.

That's honestly probably more the SSRM talking there and the fact that the TBT has a bit of an easier time shielding its CT with its arms against return SSRM...

... To clarify, SSRMS don't care one bit about intervening parts on their glorious crusade against center torsos.

Yup. It's the combination of fast pulse damage, streaks, and SPACE SHOTGUN that lights hate. LB10X is just super strong against lights. So easy to hit them with one.

And so easy to deal practically no damage when you do hit.

I still think the LBX is a poor choice in all roles, against all weight classes, and on all maps. It's a gimmick; if you're really trying to win you're always better off with something else.