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[chat] going one way, people another

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Posts

  • HonkHonk Registered User regular
    And denials, when you have played a game featuring them, is strictly just another skill layer that is invaluable.

    It completely alters the way you can, if you are good, prevent a carry to farm fast early on.
  • JacobkoshJacobkosh Gamble a stamp! I can show you how to be a real man!Super Moderator, Moderator mod
    Geth, roll 6d10h8
  • STATE OF THE ART ROBOTSTATE OF THE ART ROBOT Registered User regular
    MOBA DOBA
  • JacobkoshJacobkosh Gamble a stamp! I can show you how to be a real man!Super Moderator, Moderator mod
    yesssssssssssss
  • HonkHonk Registered User regular
    Denying towers especially means that's 5x300 gold that the other team doesn't get.
  • InquisitorInquisitor Registered User regular
    Honk wrote: »
    And denials, when you have played a game featuring them, is strictly just another skill layer that is invaluable.

    It completely alters the way you can, if you are good, prevent a carry to farm fast early on.

    Denials just make a snowball-y game snowball harder.

    Which is Zzzzzzzzzzzz
    AoTsig_zps8cfd65c2.png
  • HenroidHenroid Baba Booey to y'all Tyler, TX (where hope comes to die!)Registered User regular
    What does the h8 designate in that roll?
    "Ultima Online Pre-Trammel is the perfect example of why libertarians are full of shit." - @Ludious
    Unmotivate - Updated May 17th - "Let's Complain About Nintendo"
    The PA Forumer 'Lets Play' Archive - Updated March 25th, 2013
  • ElldrenElldren Registered User regular
    Calixtus wrote: »
    Elldren wrote: »
    Denial is achieved by area control and zoning

    actually having to shoot the damn things is just backwards

    eating trees reduces the controlled elements of the game, unbalancing it crazily by allowing players to play "make their own map" rather than having a carefully controlled environment

    in LoL you leave base with the items you can afford. going back once every 6+ minutes is not "brutally fucking over"
    Forcing someone completely off the creeps, while certainly more beneficial, doesn't tend to produce the most action-filled of games. (There might be a creep AI thing there as well, forcing someone of the creeps in HoN - and I presume DotA2 - is difficult because the other guys creeps will go for you if you try. How does that work in LoL?). The point is to force players of both teams closer togheter, by providing a larger number of things to contest - and the point of that is to generate good, PvP, gameplay.

    The environment is carefully controlled (the undestructible cliffs being the biggest case in point), it just features changeable elements - requiring a larger degree of map awareness, and providing more strategic gameplay options. There is a whole host of carefully crafted jukespots, where tearing down a single tree will give you access to another path. And there are plenty of impassable canyons holding your intrepid forest-trekkers back.

    Forcing running back to the base is, again, action reducing, replacing dynamic gameplay with rote movements.


    And DotA2 graphics are shit, which is weird, given that its more recent than any of the others.

    In LoL creep aggro, while notable early, is generally almost completely ignorable late; you zone not so much with actual hitting the enemy but with positioning and the threat of killing them or forcing them back. Moreover being unable to directly deny creeps means being unable to freeze a lane indefinitely (you can still freeze a lane for a good while, it just will always build up eventually to swing towards the enemy tower).

    I didn't know about the cliffs. The jukespots in LoL are all known quantities. Also there are bushes

    also nobody "runs" back to base in LoL. You press "b" and teleport back after a few seconds of uninterrupted standing still (any damage interrupts it)
  • evilbobevilbob Registered User regular
    Wait holy fuck they pocket their staff's tips? These people are awful. That's pretty much fraud.
  • HenroidHenroid Baba Booey to y'all Tyler, TX (where hope comes to die!)Registered User regular
    Geth roll 2d6+3
    "Ultima Online Pre-Trammel is the perfect example of why libertarians are full of shit." - @Ludious
    Unmotivate - Updated May 17th - "Let's Complain About Nintendo"
    The PA Forumer 'Lets Play' Archive - Updated March 25th, 2013
  • KageraKagera Registered User regular
    evilbob wrote: »
    Wait holy fuck they pocket their staff's tips? These people are awful. That's pretty much fraud.

    It's okay the wife has a record for identity theft they are used to doing these things.
    _J_ wrote:
    If we only allowed pedophiles to be parents, then we would never have to worry about children being left alone, unwatched.
    XBL: Fanatical One AIM: itskagera
  • ElldrenElldren Registered User regular
    Honk wrote: »
    Elldren wrote: »
    ronya wrote: »
    as for "why does it require you to eat a tree", it's probably because it doesn't cancel if you are attacked, and there needs to be some way to prevent players from just popping it whenever they are surprised for the increased regen, and making it obvious to players trying to harass you that you have popped it.

    particle effect on the player who popped it

    limited consumable item so popping it whenever, and not when you need it, is a waste

    oh wait I just described a LoL potion

    In good MOBA's, like HoN for instance where there are individual trees and not huge clusters, it can also be used to create a path for a gank or escape - by removing a tree and permitting passage.

    *This post features the assumption that the statement above does not work in LoL.

    There are no "individual trees" in LoL. The map is immutable.
  • evilbobevilbob Registered User regular
    Kagera wrote: »
    evilbob wrote: »
    Wait holy fuck they pocket their staff's tips? These people are awful. That's pretty much fraud.

    It's okay the wife has a record for identity theft they are used to doing these things.

    Seriously?
  • HonkHonk Registered User regular
    Inquisitor wrote: »
    Honk wrote: »
    And denials, when you have played a game featuring them, is strictly just another skill layer that is invaluable.

    It completely alters the way you can, if you are good, prevent a carry to farm fast early on.

    Denials just make a snowball-y game snowball harder.

    Which is Zzzzzzzzzzzz

    Yes except that it doesn't! In what way does it create more snowballing?

    90% of creep denies are in the first 15 minutes of the game and is used to control early farm. A lane facing a carry may focus quite a bit on denying in order to prevent his early farm.

    Tower denies are running throughout the game and are often difficult to land.

    Player denies almost never happen because there is only so much you can focus on in teamfights, and denying players should be the least concern on the list.
  • InquisitorInquisitor Registered User regular
    edited May 2013
    Making the other team get less gold means your team has more gold relative to them.

    Therefore you snowball relative to them.

    Of course dota2 has the pants on head stat system where one stat can give you defense and damage, so you get hyper stupid snowballing.
    Inquisitor on
    AoTsig_zps8cfd65c2.png
  • HonkHonk Registered User regular
    Elldren wrote: »
    Honk wrote: »
    Elldren wrote: »
    ronya wrote: »
    as for "why does it require you to eat a tree", it's probably because it doesn't cancel if you are attacked, and there needs to be some way to prevent players from just popping it whenever they are surprised for the increased regen, and making it obvious to players trying to harass you that you have popped it.

    particle effect on the player who popped it

    limited consumable item so popping it whenever, and not when you need it, is a waste

    oh wait I just described a LoL potion

    In good MOBA's, like HoN for instance where there are individual trees and not huge clusters, it can also be used to create a path for a gank or escape - by removing a tree and permitting passage.

    *This post features the assumption that the statement above does not work in LoL.

    There are no "individual trees" in LoL. The map is immutable.

    Ok, well the above explanations for requiring a tree being used may well be correct so that people don't just pop them at any time. But the physical removing of a tree in HoN/Dota also gives it a tactical aspect you can use quite a lot.
  • ElldrenElldren Registered User regular
    Honk wrote: »
    Elldren wrote: »
    Honk wrote: »
    Elldren wrote: »
    ronya wrote: »
    as for "why does it require you to eat a tree", it's probably because it doesn't cancel if you are attacked, and there needs to be some way to prevent players from just popping it whenever they are surprised for the increased regen, and making it obvious to players trying to harass you that you have popped it.

    particle effect on the player who popped it

    limited consumable item so popping it whenever, and not when you need it, is a waste

    oh wait I just described a LoL potion

    In good MOBA's, like HoN for instance where there are individual trees and not huge clusters, it can also be used to create a path for a gank or escape - by removing a tree and permitting passage.

    *This post features the assumption that the statement above does not work in LoL.

    There are no "individual trees" in LoL. The map is immutable.

    Ok, well the above explanations for requiring a tree being used may well be correct so that people don't just pop them at any time. But the physical removing of a tree in HoN/Dota also gives it a tactical aspect you can use quite a lot.

    In any case and returning to my original point, it's really weird and unintuitive, at least coming from a LoL background
  • JacobkoshJacobkosh Gamble a stamp! I can show you how to be a real man!Super Moderator, Moderator mod
    Henroid wrote: »
    What does the h8 designate in that roll?

    count the number of dice that hit 8 or higher (successes) and reroll 10s (that's what was happening in those (10,4) parentheses)

    it's the die system from new world of darkness
  • Tiger BurningTiger Burning Registered User regular
    hmm. i have a tiny spot of poison ivy rash on my arm, and i have no idea how i got it. which means anything i own could be contaminated. i think that i may just burn down the house when i get home tonight.

    that shit is not to be fucked with.
    "All models are wrong; some models are useful."
  • InquisitorInquisitor Registered User regular
    Going into dota2 now is basically insanity.

    It's like...

    It's like joining someones homebrew D&D campaign that has gotten a rules tweak every session 10 years into its run.
    AoTsig_zps8cfd65c2.png
  • HonkHonk Registered User regular
    Inquisitor wrote: »
    Making the other team get less gold means your team has more gold relative to them.

    Therefore you snowball relative to them.

    Of course dota2 has the pants on head stat system where one stat can give you defense and damage, so you get hyper stupid snowballing.

    It is impossible for me to see that it causes snowballing. There are three lanes and it is every lane's objective to do good and hopefully win or tie their lane in the early game.

    One of my teams lanes may be getting a lot of denies, but on the other side maybe my enemy is winning another lane. There are three locations where all of this takes place. Secondly it only affects last hit gold and the effect is local. Denying means that I stopped the opportunity for my lane-enemy to get a last hit in, and also that they did not get any xp for the creep (all creeps give off xp points in a small area around them when they die). It has no affect for any heroes outside of the immediate xp range of the lane I am in.

    Which is why focusing on denying is a fantastic way to delay the farm of an enemy carry. If me and my lane partner is focusing on denying that means we will miss opportunities to land last hits ourselves - which means less gold for us. But there is a significant team advantage for us by delaying the speed that the enemy carry earns gold.

    It is tactics and nothing else, like all things it can cause snowballing if all our lanes win. But then if we are winning all lanes we probably won the game anyway.
  • ElldrenElldren Registered User regular
    Inquisitor wrote: »
    Going into dota2 now is basically insanity.

    It's like...

    It's like joining someones homebrew D&D campaign that has gotten a rules tweak every session 10 years into its run.

    "DotA2, how do you get health back?"

    "USE A DANCE. EAT A TREE."
  • RMS OceanicRMS Oceanic Registered User regular
    @Jacobkosh when you Gethrolled there, what was the 'h' for?
  • InquisitorInquisitor Registered User regular
    Denying allows for a wider disparity in gold and XP amount between teams.

    Thus things can snowball harder.

    Like, this is very basic. I am not sure what you are getting hung up on.
    AoTsig_zps8cfd65c2.png
  • HonkHonk Registered User regular
    Elldren wrote: »
    Honk wrote: »
    Elldren wrote: »
    Honk wrote: »
    Elldren wrote: »
    ronya wrote: »
    as for "why does it require you to eat a tree", it's probably because it doesn't cancel if you are attacked, and there needs to be some way to prevent players from just popping it whenever they are surprised for the increased regen, and making it obvious to players trying to harass you that you have popped it.

    particle effect on the player who popped it

    limited consumable item so popping it whenever, and not when you need it, is a waste

    oh wait I just described a LoL potion

    In good MOBA's, like HoN for instance where there are individual trees and not huge clusters, it can also be used to create a path for a gank or escape - by removing a tree and permitting passage.

    *This post features the assumption that the statement above does not work in LoL.

    There are no "individual trees" in LoL. The map is immutable.

    Ok, well the above explanations for requiring a tree being used may well be correct so that people don't just pop them at any time. But the physical removing of a tree in HoN/Dota also gives it a tactical aspect you can use quite a lot.

    In any case and returning to my original point, it's really weird and unintuitive, at least coming from a LoL background

    I can see that, it was more logical going from the Dota mod since it was featured there too.
  • ronyaronya hmmm over there!Registered User regular
    snowballing and abilities that can completely change a battle are characteristic of dota

    lol favours more incremental play

    these seem like deliberate design choices
  • HonkHonk Registered User regular
    I am speaking from a HoN point of view.

    I fucking hate Dota 2 for the fact that they refused every opportunity to improve the game for fear of upsetting fans of the mod. Instead what they have is a 2012 game with mechanics exactly intact from the original mod, zero improvements and modernizations except the graphics, audio and ui.
  • ElldrenElldren Registered User regular
    Inquisitor wrote: »
    Denying allows for a wider disparity in gold and XP amount between teams.

    Thus things can snowball harder.

    Like, this is very basic. I am not sure what you are getting hung up on.

    Yeah. In any MOBA team advantage can be measured in a only a handful of ways. One is map control (towers killed, jungle controlled/warded etc). Another is experience gained and relative levels. The third is gold earned.
  • HonkHonk Registered User regular
    Inquisitor wrote: »
    Denying allows for a wider disparity in gold and XP amount between teams.

    Thus things can snowball harder.

    Like, this is very basic. I am not sure what you are getting hung up on.

    For all of the reasons I laid out in detail in two posts above.

    It creates a disparity that is local. It is skill based, and therefore you can do something about it. It is most relevant in the early game and if a snowballing happens in the first 15 minutes then you are losing anyway. By focusing on denying you are missing getting last hits yourself. It does not affect the global gold gain - only last hits in that lane.

    After the early game the laning phase is over and there close to zero denying going on at all.
  • ElldrenElldren Registered User regular
    Honk wrote: »
    I am speaking from a HoN point of view.

    I fucking hate Dota 2 for the fact that they refused every opportunity to improve the game for fear of upsetting fans of the mod. Instead what they have is a 2012 game with mechanics exactly intact from the original mod, zero improvements and modernizations except the graphics, audio and ui.

    The graphics are muddy as hell too. Not nearly enough contrast or color diversity.
  • ronyaronya hmmm over there!Registered User regular
    edited May 2013
    it's very clearly not crucial since dota 5.84c did not have it

    but it's something that got added and then tweaked substantially over 6.xx and the devs seem to be happy with how it is
    ronya on
  • HenroidHenroid Baba Booey to y'all Tyler, TX (where hope comes to die!)Registered User regular
    "Ultima Online Pre-Trammel is the perfect example of why libertarians are full of shit." - @Ludious
    Unmotivate - Updated May 17th - "Let's Complain About Nintendo"
    The PA Forumer 'Lets Play' Archive - Updated March 25th, 2013
  • bowenbowen Registered User regular
    It's great when you can fit into jeans you wore 4 years ago.
  • ronyaronya hmmm over there!Registered User regular
    it was acceptable since in 5.84c, there was already a "don't autoattack creeps - you'll push the lane and get us in danger" counter-intuitiveness going on

    I don't know how LoL handles lane equilibrium though
  • ElldrenElldren Registered User regular
    Honk wrote: »
    Inquisitor wrote: »
    Denying allows for a wider disparity in gold and XP amount between teams.

    Thus things can snowball harder.

    Like, this is very basic. I am not sure what you are getting hung up on.

    For all of the reasons I laid out in detail in two posts above.

    It creates a disparity that is local. It is skill based, and therefore you can do something about it. It is most relevant in the early game and if a snowballing happens in the first 15 minutes then you are losing anyway. By focusing on denying you are missing getting last hits yourself. It does not affect the global gold gain - only last hits in that lane.

    After the early game the laning phase is over and there close to zero denying going on at all.

    All gold gain is global gold gain Honk.

    I mean, not in the same sense as a tower kill, but when comparing overall team totals it will show up

    And a higher overall team gold total is one of the strongest indicators of eventual victory
  • ronyaronya hmmm over there!Registered User regular
    there was a version of 6.xx where denial denied all exp, so you could be level ten and the other poor sod is level two

    this happened in tournaments, even, when a bad lane matchup occurred
  • ElldrenElldren Registered User regular
    Henroid wrote: »

    She has learned.

    She will not make the same mistake again.
  • DevoutlyApatheticDevoutlyApathetic I've Done Worse Registered User regular
    Honk wrote: »
    Inquisitor wrote: »
    Denying allows for a wider disparity in gold and XP amount between teams.

    Thus things can snowball harder.

    Like, this is very basic. I am not sure what you are getting hung up on.

    For all of the reasons I laid out in detail in two posts above.

    It creates a disparity that is local. It is skill based, and therefore you can do something about it. It is most relevant in the early game and if a snowballing happens in the first 15 minutes then you are losing anyway. By focusing on denying you are missing getting last hits yourself. It does not affect the global gold gain - only last hits in that lane.

    After the early game the laning phase is over and there close to zero denying going on at all.

    Does snowballing has a special MOBA definition?

    You seem to be admitting to the general game usage of snowballing "A confrontation win now makes future confrontations more likely to be won by the previous winner." You are also arguing that it isn't really relevant to the general game picture which isn't something I can comment on.
    "When you run into an asshole in the morning, you ran into an asshole. When you run into assholes all day, you're the asshole."

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  • ronyaronya hmmm over there!Registered User regular
    I remember when there was no such thing as a carry because farming opportunities generally outnumbered your ability to exploit them, rather than the other way around, so everyone farmed rather than reserve gold for the carry
  • CasualCasual IT'S CRIME TIME MOTHAFUCKAS WE OUTRegistered User regular
    bowen wrote: »
    It's great when you can fit into jeans you wore 4 years ago.

    conversly, i think it's time i accepted i no longer have a 32" waist
    R.I.P Sir Check
    i write amazing erotic fiction

    its all about anthropomorphic dicks doing everyday things like buying shoes for their scrotum-feet
    ??/02/2009 - 19/04/2013
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