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The Brad Muir Thread: Also Starring Giant Bomb

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Posts

  • ChincymcchillaChincymcchilla Registered User regular
    Kwoaru wrote: »
    JayKaos wrote: »
    She didn't manage to take any money though, the thing got shut down. She did something wrong, because she was desperate and in a bad place. The writer did something wrong because he "knew better" than someone whose situation he didn't and could never fully understand.

    Yeah lets be clear: she lied and that is bad, had she gotten any money that would have been fraud which is worse

    But what the guy did by outing her was so much worse than lying, and with negative consequences so much greater than fraud, that it is impossible to equate the two

    Her crowd funding thing was taken down before he wrote his article, her horrifying attempted-suicide-cast happened before his article, and presumably she was put into/sought treatment before his article

    Now, if somebody felt inclined to give this guy the tiniest sliver of the benefit of the doubt, there is a worthwhile story here about the treatment of trans persons in society and the lengths they are driven to because they can't get the help they need

    But he didn't write that story, he wrote about someones personal tragedy that he was slightly connected to (I think he said he talked/became friends with her somewhere long the way before her suicide attempt?) and exploited that for a self aggrandizing piece about how he knows best, and so he thoughtlessly outed her because without the fact of her being trans there is no story here at all

    He has potentially put her in physical danger and thrown more fuel into what is clearly an already volatile situation psychologically speaking

    By writing this piece he did not: expose any fraud, prevent any attempts at self harm, or draw attention to the plight of trans people

    He wrote a shitty story that invaded another person's privacy to try and get some page views for his website, and everyone involved would be better off if he had decided not to be such an awful human being

    Again, noone in this thread is in any way defending the author. Fuck that guy.
  • P10P10 Registered User regular
    -Tal wrote: »
    um I thought I was donating this money to save your life but it's actually just to make you not want to kill yourself every day, can I have a refund...
    If she had been vague about the nature of the surgery (life saving surgery vs specifically metal poisoning) then i don't think anyone would have room to complain

    but as it is she did deceive people, even if its for a reason we all agree with. should she go to jail for fraud or be otherwise punished? no, not at all, but it would have been better if she hadn't deceived people.
    shitty situation with no clean solution
  • LockedOnTargetLockedOnTarget Registered User regular
    She was in a really shitty situation no matter how you look at it.

    Doesn't make her scamming people, right, though.

    But her doing something wrong doesn't make outing her to the public right, either.
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  • HyperAquaBlastHyperAquaBlast Registered User regular
    Now I haven't read the article but did the journalist write it in a way of being a goose or was it hey here is the truth of whats going on with this person?
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  • KwoaruKwoaru Registered User regular
    Kwoaru wrote: »
    JayKaos wrote: »
    She didn't manage to take any money though, the thing got shut down. She did something wrong, because she was desperate and in a bad place. The writer did something wrong because he "knew better" than someone whose situation he didn't and could never fully understand.

    Yeah lets be clear: she lied and that is bad, had she gotten any money that would have been fraud which is worse

    But what the guy did by outing her was so much worse than lying, and with negative consequences so much greater than fraud, that it is impossible to equate the two

    Her crowd funding thing was taken down before he wrote his article, her horrifying attempted-suicide-cast happened before his article, and presumably she was put into/sought treatment before his article

    Now, if somebody felt inclined to give this guy the tiniest sliver of the benefit of the doubt, there is a worthwhile story here about the treatment of trans persons in society and the lengths they are driven to because they can't get the help they need

    But he didn't write that story, he wrote about someones personal tragedy that he was slightly connected to (I think he said he talked/became friends with her somewhere long the way before her suicide attempt?) and exploited that for a self aggrandizing piece about how he knows best, and so he thoughtlessly outed her because without the fact of her being trans there is no story here at all

    He has potentially put her in physical danger and thrown more fuel into what is clearly an already volatile situation psychologically speaking

    By writing this piece he did not: expose any fraud, prevent any attempts at self harm, or draw attention to the plight of trans people

    He wrote a shitty story that invaded another person's privacy to try and get some page views for his website, and everyone involved would be better off if he had decided not to be such an awful human being

    Again, noone in this thread is in any way defending the author. Fuck that guy.

    yeah so many posts happened between when I started writing that and when I actually hit post
  • KwoaruKwoaru Registered User regular
    Hullis wrote: »
    Now I haven't read the article but did the journalist write it in a way of being a goose or was it hey here is the truth of whats going on with this person?
    no he was pretty much an enormous dick about it, the piece itself borders on blatantly transphobic

    and almost all of his tweets relating to the article cross right over that line into "solidly bigoted"
  • LockedOnTargetLockedOnTarget Registered User regular
    Whatever his intentions and methods were, no one should be outing her to the public but her.
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  • -Tal-Tal Truth is elusive It's nowhere to be foundRegistered User regular
    Was there any way out of this that did not involve either suicide or a dishonest crowdfunding campaign
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  • HyperAquaBlastHyperAquaBlast Registered User regular
    Whatever his intentions and methods were, no one should be outing her to the public but her.

    Well if it was cold hard fact journalism then I don't think it should have mattered. Truth comes out of facts even its good or bad,

    But since it was apparently a hate piece then yeah it was a outing due to spite and thats wrong.
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  • HullisHullis I'm no more a spy than you are- A doctor.Registered User regular
    -Tal wrote: »
    Was there any way out of this that did not involve either suicide or a dishonest crowdfunding campaign

    maybe? at least, I hope so

    hindsight is 20/20, of cours
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  • -Tal-Tal Truth is elusive It's nowhere to be foundRegistered User regular
    Whatever his intentions and methods were, no one should be outing her to the public but her.

    Well if it was cold hard fact journalism then I don't think it should have mattered. Truth comes out of facts even its good or bad

    he's a fucking video game journalist

    god he even directly compared this whole thing to the idea of hiding information on the boston bombers

    it is not any of his fucking business or integrity or due diligence or whatever to out someone against their will, especially right after they attempted suicide
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  • ChincymcchillaChincymcchilla Registered User regular
    -Tal wrote: »
    Was there any way out of this that did not involve either suicide or a dishonest crowdfunding campaign

    An honest crowdfunding campaign?
  • StiltsStilts Registered User regular
    -Tal wrote: »
    Was there any way out of this that did not involve either suicide or a dishonest crowdfunding campaign

    It seems like that would be impossible to tell without knowing the specifics of her personal life.

    There probably weren't many other ways; but trying to argue for or against it being her only remaining option would be misguided, I think.
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  • -Tal-Tal Truth is elusive It's nowhere to be foundRegistered User regular
    Hullis wrote: »
    -Tal wrote: »
    Was there any way out of this that did not involve either suicide or a dishonest crowdfunding campaign

    maybe? at least, I hope so

    hindsight is 20/20, of cours

    what do you think she should have done
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  • HullisHullis I'm no more a spy than you are- A doctor.Registered User regular
    -Tal wrote: »
    Was there any way out of this that did not involve either suicide or a dishonest crowdfunding campaign

    An honest crowdfunding campaign?
    this is tricky because people are fucking evil to transgendered folks

    I'd like to think that it would have worked, but she would have received a lot of fucking horrible messages
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  • JayKaosJayKaos Registered User regular
    Also, that would have involved outing herself as transgendered, which depending on her situation could be a huge fucking problem.
    http://steamcommunity.com/id/jaykaos This is my steam profile.
  • HyperAquaBlastHyperAquaBlast Registered User regular
    -Tal wrote: »
    Whatever his intentions and methods were, no one should be outing her to the public but her.

    Well if it was cold hard fact journalism then I don't think it should have mattered. Truth comes out of facts even its good or bad

    he's a fucking video game journalist

    god he even directly compared this whole thing to the idea of hiding information on the boston bombers

    it is not any of his fucking business or integrity or due diligence or whatever to out someone against their will, especially right after they attempted suicide

    video game journalist was not the operative term I was putting down when I made my general statement.
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  • HobnailHobnail Registered User regular
    Hullis wrote: »
    -Tal wrote: »
    Was there any way out of this that did not involve either suicide or a dishonest crowdfunding campaign

    An honest crowdfunding campaign?
    this is tricky because people are fucking evil to transgendered folks

    I'd like to think that it would have worked, but she would have received a lot of fucking horrible messages

    Like, death threats. Potentially credible death threats.
  • LockedOnTargetLockedOnTarget Registered User regular
    edited May 2013
    It's a very complicated situation that you really can't boil down to "She should have just done an honest campaign!" vs. "Fraud was the only option!"
    LockedOnTarget on
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  • StiltsStilts Registered User regular
    edited May 2013
    Whatever his intentions and methods were, no one should be outing her to the public but her.

    Well if it was cold hard fact journalism then I don't think it should have mattered. Truth comes out of facts even its good or bad,

    But since it was apparently a hate piece then yeah it was a outing due to spite and thats wrong.

    Part of being a journalist is weighing the public benefit against the consequences of the reveal.

    Like, that is a basic and important skill to master.

    How does his piece help the public in a way that justifies additional mental trauma to his subject?
    Stilts on
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  • -Tal-Tal Truth is elusive It's nowhere to be foundRegistered User regular
    you need only look at people's comments on articles regarding this situation to see that anxiety about coming out is well-founded
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  • SwissLionSwissLion KILLING THROWS Miami, FloridaRegistered User regular
    In a nicer world the idea of crowdfunding SRS for someone is actually really neat.

    But in this one, someone trying to do that would probably be met with almost as much vitriol as this has been getting.

    Come on CERN, get to work on opening those dimensional portals.

    Wanna Sliders our way to a better world.
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  • ChincymcchillaChincymcchilla Registered User regular
    edited May 2013
    if you think she would have gotten even a tenth of what she got if she had been honest then I don't even know what to say

    I think there are places like here and pockets of the gaming community that absolutely would have stepped up to fund her surgery.

    I understand she could have faced harassment, but if you think 9/10 people are transphobic maybe we have a different view of people.

    I live in South Carolina and there is a transgendered woman in the office. Even here its not freaking 10% of of people who accept her. That's a pretty dismal view of humanity.

    edit: I guess I'm choosing to believe, based on my experiences here, that the comments and vitriol that come out online against transgenders are a vocal minority.
    Chincymcchilla on
  • StiltsStilts Registered User regular
    edited May 2013
    -Tal wrote: »
    Whatever his intentions and methods were, no one should be outing her to the public but her.

    Well if it was cold hard fact journalism then I don't think it should have mattered. Truth comes out of facts even its good or bad

    he's a fucking video game journalist

    god he even directly compared this whole thing to the idea of hiding information on the boston bombers

    it is not any of his fucking business or integrity or due diligence or whatever to out someone against their will, especially right after they attempted suicide

    video game journalist was not the operative term I was putting down when I made my general statement.

    Doesn't matter what term you're using.

    Journalists can't just ruin someone's life and justify it by yelling, "It's the truth!"

    There are ethics to consider.

    For example: http://www.spj.org/rrr.asp?ref=68&t=ethics
    Stilts on
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  • KwoaruKwoaru Registered User regular
    -Tal wrote: »
    Was there any way out of this that did not involve either suicide or a dishonest crowdfunding campaign

    I want to say an honest crowd funding campaign, but I feel like crowd funding sites don't allow the sort of anonymity she would have wanted given that she didn't want to be out publicly

    She clearly needed some sort of help, a support group if not an actual therapist

    Are there charities that focus on helping people afford to transition?

    I assume she was in a bad situation financially but I obviously don't know enough about her background to make any suggestion that isn't basically "find help/support"
  • HyperAquaBlastHyperAquaBlast Registered User regular
    Stilts wrote: »
    Whatever his intentions and methods were, no one should be outing her to the public but her.

    Well if it was cold hard fact journalism then I don't think it should have mattered. Truth comes out of facts even its good or bad,

    But since it was apparently a hate piece then yeah it was a outing due to spite and thats wrong.

    Part of being a journalist is weighing the public benefit against the consequences of the reveal.

    Like, that is a basic and important skill to master.

    How does his piece help the public in a way that justifies additional mental trauma to his subject?

    Again I wasn't stating this topic specifically.

    In normal journalism you put down the facts. If it happens to be facts that could bring stuff into a bad light then thems the breaks.

    Don't think I am defending this guy or his piece.

    I am defending that I want to hear the truth and in normal news journalism even if it could make somebody or group look bad. Opinion pieces don't count.
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  • 101101 Registered User regular
    edited May 2013
    I think that if you're going to ask for help, monetary or otherwise, then it's important to be honest about what you're asking the help for.

    But she clearly wasn't in a good place with all of this so I can cut some slack (e: plus you know, the horrible bigotry aimed at transfolk)
    However outing someone when it's both against their wishes and at a time when they can't even speak for themselves -after such an awful event- is pretty reprehensible.

    The funding page wasn't even up anymore so there was literally no public benefit to the piece; it's just spiteful.
    101 on
  • SwissLionSwissLion KILLING THROWS Miami, FloridaRegistered User regular
    Stilts wrote: »
    Whatever his intentions and methods were, no one should be outing her to the public but her.

    Well if it was cold hard fact journalism then I don't think it should have mattered. Truth comes out of facts even its good or bad,

    But since it was apparently a hate piece then yeah it was a outing due to spite and thats wrong.

    Part of being a journalist is weighing the public benefit against the consequences of the reveal.

    Like, that is a basic and important skill to master.

    How does his piece help the public in a way that justifies additional mental trauma to his subject?

    Again I wasn't stating this topic specifically.

    In normal journalism you put down the facts. If it happens to be facts that could bring stuff into a bad light then thems the breaks.

    Don't think I am defending this guy or his piece.

    I am defending that I want to hear the truth and in normal news journalism even if it could make somebody or group look bad. Opinion pieces don't count.

    At some point doing something to preserve your journalistic integrity is a selfish act.

    I am finding it extremely difficult to think of a situation where this particular something would be close to justifiable.
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  • Vargas PrimeVargas Prime King of Nothing Just a ShowRegistered User regular
    Dichotomy wrote: »
    I guess I'm choosing to believe, based on my experiences here, that the comments and vitriol that come out online against transgenders are a vocal minority.

    you are incredibly wrong

    Even if this were the case, and anti-trans people were a small minority, the fact would remain that at least a portion of them are violently so, and so the possibility of physical harm or death is still very real, even if one is able to weather the emotional battering and bullying they could receive.
  • HyperAquaBlastHyperAquaBlast Registered User regular
    Stilts wrote: »
    Stilts wrote: »
    Whatever his intentions and methods were, no one should be outing her to the public but her.

    Well if it was cold hard fact journalism then I don't think it should have mattered. Truth comes out of facts even its good or bad,

    But since it was apparently a hate piece then yeah it was a outing due to spite and thats wrong.

    Part of being a journalist is weighing the public benefit against the consequences of the reveal.

    Like, that is a basic and important skill to master.

    How does his piece help the public in a way that justifies additional mental trauma to his subject?

    Again I wasn't stating this topic specifically.

    In normal journalism you put down the facts. If it happens to be facts that could bring stuff into a bad light then thems the breaks.

    Don't think I am defending this guy or his piece.

    I am defending that I want to hear the truth and in normal news journalism even if it could make somebody or group look bad. Opinion pieces don't count.

    No

    Fuck you

    I am going to quote the SPJ's "common sense principles" to hopefully get the point across.

    "Journalists often advance their “right” to seek information and record events, and stories of grief and tragedy are a staple of community news. The SPJ Code underscores the accompanying “responsibility” with common-sense principles:

    — Show compassion for those who may be affected adversely by news coverage.

    — Be sensitive when seeking or using interviews or photographs of those affected by tragedy or grief.

    — Recognize that gathering and reporting information may cause harm or discomfort.

    — Recognize that private people have a greater right to control information about themselves than do public officials.

    — Show good taste. Avoid pandering to lurid curiosity."


    The writer did not consider or simply ignored at least 4 of those principles.

    No fuck you.

    I AM NOT DEFENDING THE WRITER.

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  • ChincymcchillaChincymcchilla Registered User regular
    Antimatter wrote: »
    penny arcade is a minority on the web for trans support and that only happened recently

    a former admin and current mod coming out as trans along with active posters doing the same probably helped

    By "here" I meant the IT outfit I work for in a vastly right wing southern state.
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