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Universal Studio's new film in November: Ender's Game

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Posts

  • PoorochondriacPoorochondriac Registered User regular
    Also, my number one criticism is and always has been, "The prose is absolute shit." Which again has nothing to do with the man's personal politics. Shitty prose is shitty prose is shitty prose, regardless of the author.
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  • agoajagoaj Registered User regular
    Dichotomy wrote: »
    what a coincidence that so many people here like a book whose thesis could be boiled down to "young intellectual middle class males are the very best kind of people"

    Why would anyone interpret the story this way? One guy in the Ender universe feels this way and justifies the xenocide so that he can repeat it. He is the bad guy at the end of the series.
  • AnzekayAnzekay The world is not beautiful Therefore it isRegistered User regular
    edited May 2013
    .
    Anzekay wrote: »
    Anzekay wrote: »
    I love Ender's Game and Speaker for the Dead. The rest of the series is okay/brilliant/bad all at once.

    I will probably see the film, though I bet they will ruin it and turn it into some shitty action flick.

    Card himself can suck a dick though. The more bigoted he has become over time, the shittier his writing has become.

    PS: All those crazy seedy undertone accusations about the first book seem like they are really stretching it to me. It feels a lot more like finding shit to support something you want to be true than anything else.

    I've always thought that's such a weird defense against criticism. "You're just looking for something you want to be true." Why would they want it to be true? Why on earth would someone go into a YA novel actively looking for fascist undertones? What would one gain?

    And if it's an arbitrary, pulled-from-thin-air theme, how come (as far as I know) zero other Young Adult novels have had similar accusations of proto-fascism and genocide-apologia lobbed at 'em? Why would people collectively, arbitrarily pick this one, all at once?

    What a profoundly silly, dismissive attitude.

    This particular one? I'd argue it's because a lot of people really dislike Card and want to find reasons to make his early writing (you don't need to do it with some of his later works) appear hateful and horrible. While I certainly can't say it's all perfect and shiny for young adults, I certainly don't believe it is as bad as people make it out to be.

    Do people have good reason to dislike Card? Absolutely, and I am right there with them. But I suppose I just look at all these arguments trying to make Ender's Game look like some sort of horrible piece of work and just can't help but wonder if people are speaking out of their hate for Card rather than a neutral analysis of the book itself.

    Maybe I'm just feeling a little defensive of a book that I really value a lot- it was a very important piece of ficton to me in my younger years (along with Speaker for the Dead, which was more important really), which does feel weird when I consider who the author is, but this is just the gut feeling I get whenver I see someone call it pro-nazi.

    I don't really think that's profoundly silly or dismissive.

    If people wanted to tie their criticisms of the book into Card's noxious politics, they'd go hunting for homophobia or Mormon parables, as exist in his later work. But nobody here has done that, because it ain't there.

    What people have done is see a troubling undercurrent (without having to go look for it - I've been saying this shit well before I knew about Card's vile personal politics), point it at, and had the response be, "Nah, haters gonna hate." Which is silly and dismissive.

    There is a difference between 'haters gonna hate' and wondering if people are letting their dislike for an author colour their opinion of his works, regardless of whether they are right or wrong about it. This is a very real thing that people do actually do with all sorts of things. There is a reason the expression 'separate the author from the works' is something you see pop up every so often in such discussions.

    To hear a criticism like that, and simply claim it is 'haters gonna hate' is pretty silly and dismissive. It the criticism always accurate for every person ever? No, probably not! But that does not make it any less of a valid thing to propose, and to simply push it away as some sort of dismissing attitude? I think that is in and of itself dismissing someone's argument without really considering it.
    Anzekay on
    Battletag: Anzekay#1395
  • PoorochondriacPoorochondriac Registered User regular
    But you don't have an argument.

    There are things in the text that back up the interpretations people in this thread have. They have something to point to justify why they think what they think.

    Your response to that is to guess at people's motivations, with literally nothing concrete to back it up. Which, yeah, I'm gonna dismiss, because I don't know any of the "people" you anecdotally refer to.
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  • PoorochondriacPoorochondriac Registered User regular
    edited May 2013
    Or to come at it from another way:

    You're saying one of two things. "People in this thread are only leveling these criticisms because they don't like Card," which is insulting to the analytic and interpretive abilities of a whole lot of people you don't know and have never met, because it's saying that those skills are colored by their personal prejudices and they are incapable of transcending them when examining a work. It is to call them petty, small, and vindictive, and it's rude as hell.

    OR you're saying, "People elsewhere level criticisms at Ender's Game because they don't like Card," which is completely irrelevant to our discussions, since we aren't those people, and it's not worth even mentioning.

    Basically, you're either being a dick, or posting irrelevant fluff.
    Poorochondriac on
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  • Munkus BeaverMunkus Beaver Registered User, ClubPA regular
    Also, my number one criticism is and always has been, "The prose is absolute shit." Which again has nothing to do with the man's personal politics. Shitty prose is shitty prose is shitty prose, regardless of the author.

    Were you the one who referred to Hunger Games as being a YA novel with good prose?
    "Advanced incompetence is indistinguishable from malice."
    "Humor can be dissected, as a frog can, but it dies in the process."
    Imagine all of my posts being spoken by Alec Baldwin
    GamerTag: MunkusBeaver ||||| Steam: munkus
  • AnzekayAnzekay The world is not beautiful Therefore it isRegistered User regular
    edited May 2013
    Or to come at it from another way:

    You're saying one of two things. "People in this thread are only leveling these criticisms because they don't like Card," which is insulting to the analytic and interpretive abilities of a whole lot of people you don't know and have never met, because it's saying that those skills are colored by their personal prejudices and they are incapable of transcending them when examining a work. It is to call them petty, small, and vindictive, and it's rude as hell.

    OR you're saying, "People elsewhere level criticisms at Ender's Game because they don't like Card," which is completely irrelevant to our discussions, since we aren't those people, and it's not worth even mentioning.

    Basically, you're either being a dick, or posting irrelevant fluff.

    You know, to have this whole conversation be derived from a small sentence that started with "It feels" and was a rather general statement is sort of weird to me.

    I'm not trying to level that saber at anyone in particular, it was just an observation I made in a very general sense. Since then I've just been trying to justify the observation as having some grounding in truth in regards to someone after having that dismissed as something that can apparently never happen.
    Anzekay on
    Battletag: Anzekay#1395
  • PaladinPaladin Registered User regular
    It seems like a lot of criticism because people with a balanced, evidence based view kind of let the positives fall off cause it makes you feel like you're defending someone you hate, and people who generally like the work won't all be raring to come defend it, which selects for people comfortable with finding and expressing the flaws rather than the merits, both valid and invalid.

    It's inhuman to be so objective that you can derive the same amount of enjoyment from something you hate versus something you like, and it's unfair to ask normal people to meet that standard.
    Marty: The future, it's where you're going?
    Doc: That's right, twenty five years into the future. I've always dreamed on seeing the future, looking beyond my years, seeing the progress of mankind. I'll also be able to see who wins the next twenty-five world series.
  • PiptheFairPiptheFair Registered User regular
    Also, my number one criticism is and always has been, "The prose is absolute shit." Which again has nothing to do with the man's personal politics. Shitty prose is shitty prose is shitty prose, regardless of the author.

    Were you the one who referred to Hunger Games as being a YA novel with good prose?

    the first one is

    the first one only
    STEAM
    Skayel wrote:
    One time, I had a friend over to play a bit of Red Alert on my LAN. During the game he said he needed to go to the bathroom, so we paused it. After about 10 minutes of wondering where the hell he went, I get up and go to check on him.

    Turns out he was trying to screw my dog.
    Once I was taking a poop at a restaurant and a kid crept underneath the door into my stall. I let out a big fart and then he threw up all over the floor in front of me and I just stared at him.
  • PoorochondriacPoorochondriac Registered User regular
    Also, my number one criticism is and always has been, "The prose is absolute shit." Which again has nothing to do with the man's personal politics. Shitty prose is shitty prose is shitty prose, regardless of the author.

    Were you the one who referred to Hunger Games as being a YA novel with good prose?

    I should've narrowed it down to Mockingjay, 'cause yeah, the first two are workmanlike at best.

    But Mockingjay's is quite solid.
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  • Munkus BeaverMunkus Beaver Registered User, ClubPA regular
    PiptheFair wrote: »
    Also, my number one criticism is and always has been, "The prose is absolute shit." Which again has nothing to do with the man's personal politics. Shitty prose is shitty prose is shitty prose, regardless of the author.

    Were you the one who referred to Hunger Games as being a YA novel with good prose?

    the first one is

    the first one only

    The first one barely.

    The second and third are just...horrible prose.
    "Advanced incompetence is indistinguishable from malice."
    "Humor can be dissected, as a frog can, but it dies in the process."
    Imagine all of my posts being spoken by Alec Baldwin
    GamerTag: MunkusBeaver ||||| Steam: munkus
  • PoorochondriacPoorochondriac Registered User regular
    PiptheFair wrote: »
    Also, my number one criticism is and always has been, "The prose is absolute shit." Which again has nothing to do with the man's personal politics. Shitty prose is shitty prose is shitty prose, regardless of the author.

    Were you the one who referred to Hunger Games as being a YA novel with good prose?

    the first one is

    the first one only

    The first one barely.

    The second and third are just...horrible prose.

    Nah
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  • Munkus BeaverMunkus Beaver Registered User, ClubPA regular
    You would be the first one I have ever seen defend books two and three of the Hunger Games as good prose.
    "Advanced incompetence is indistinguishable from malice."
    "Humor can be dissected, as a frog can, but it dies in the process."
    Imagine all of my posts being spoken by Alec Baldwin
    GamerTag: MunkusBeaver ||||| Steam: munkus
  • PiptheFairPiptheFair Registered User regular
    Also, my number one criticism is and always has been, "The prose is absolute shit." Which again has nothing to do with the man's personal politics. Shitty prose is shitty prose is shitty prose, regardless of the author.

    Were you the one who referred to Hunger Games as being a YA novel with good prose?

    I should've narrowed it down to Mockingjay, 'cause yeah, the first two are workmanlike at best.

    But Mockingjay's is quite solid.
    on a scale of 1 to hemingway, how fucking drunk are you right now
    STEAM
    Skayel wrote:
    One time, I had a friend over to play a bit of Red Alert on my LAN. During the game he said he needed to go to the bathroom, so we paused it. After about 10 minutes of wondering where the hell he went, I get up and go to check on him.

    Turns out he was trying to screw my dog.
    Once I was taking a poop at a restaurant and a kid crept underneath the door into my stall. I let out a big fart and then he threw up all over the floor in front of me and I just stared at him.
  • PoorochondriacPoorochondriac Registered User regular
    edited May 2013
    You would be the first one I have ever seen defend books two and three of the Hunger Games as good prose.

    I literally just said that I'd only make the claim about the third.

    Like three posts above your post.

    No wonder you don't think it's good prose, you're clearly illiterate
    <3
    Poorochondriac on
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  • PoorochondriacPoorochondriac Registered User regular
    PiptheFair wrote: »
    Also, my number one criticism is and always has been, "The prose is absolute shit." Which again has nothing to do with the man's personal politics. Shitty prose is shitty prose is shitty prose, regardless of the author.

    Were you the one who referred to Hunger Games as being a YA novel with good prose?

    I should've narrowed it down to Mockingjay, 'cause yeah, the first two are workmanlike at best.

    But Mockingjay's is quite solid.
    on a scale of 1 to hemingway, how fucking drunk are you right now

    Ain't been drunk in weeks
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  • PoorochondriacPoorochondriac Registered User regular
    PiptheFair wrote: »
    pratchett is the best YA writer fyi

    Well, duh
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  • Blake TBlake T Registered User regular
    I wish I never read the second and third books.
  • SirEtchwartsSirEtchwarts Edward Kenway's yer man. Arg, Swashbuckle, Avast, etc.Registered User regular
    John Green's a YA author I'm a fan of. Or at least, his books in the "high schoolers vs the world" subgenre are the only ones I've been able to really appreciate.
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  • AnzekayAnzekay The world is not beautiful Therefore it isRegistered User regular
    PiptheFair wrote: »
    pratchett is also the best adult writer

    Pratchett is just the best writer
    Battletag: Anzekay#1395
  • SirEtchwartsSirEtchwarts Edward Kenway's yer man. Arg, Swashbuckle, Avast, etc.Registered User regular
    Blake T wrote: »
    I wish I never read the second and third books.

    True Story: The third Hunger Games book is the only book I've ever put down without finishing. Ever.
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  • PoorochondriacPoorochondriac Registered User regular
    PiptheFair wrote: »
    pratchett is also the best adult writer

    I dunno, man, have you ever heard of a fella by the name of John Grisham?
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  • Bluedude152Bluedude152 Registered User regular
    I only hated the second book. The entire second half felt unnecessary
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  • AntimatterAntimatter I remember touch I need something moreRegistered User regular
    the third book, to me, felt rushed, unfocused, and possessed poor word choices in general.
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  • PiptheFairPiptheFair Registered User regular
    PiptheFair wrote: »
    pratchett is also the best adult writer

    I dunno, man, have you ever heard of a fella by the name of John Grisham?

    he that guy what writes them sandra bullack movies?
    STEAM
    Skayel wrote:
    One time, I had a friend over to play a bit of Red Alert on my LAN. During the game he said he needed to go to the bathroom, so we paused it. After about 10 minutes of wondering where the hell he went, I get up and go to check on him.

    Turns out he was trying to screw my dog.
    Once I was taking a poop at a restaurant and a kid crept underneath the door into my stall. I let out a big fart and then he threw up all over the floor in front of me and I just stared at him.
  • Virgil_Leads_YouVirgil_Leads_You Registered User regular
    All this talk of YA authors makes me wonder why there isn't a shorthand for the typecasting of Old Adult authors.
    Who writes the best civil war yarns, toastmaster's joke collections, and Matlock novelizations for Gramps?
  • PiptheFairPiptheFair Registered User regular
    matlock is great

    as is columbo
    STEAM
    Skayel wrote:
    One time, I had a friend over to play a bit of Red Alert on my LAN. During the game he said he needed to go to the bathroom, so we paused it. After about 10 minutes of wondering where the hell he went, I get up and go to check on him.

    Turns out he was trying to screw my dog.
    Once I was taking a poop at a restaurant and a kid crept underneath the door into my stall. I let out a big fart and then he threw up all over the floor in front of me and I just stared at him.
  • AbracadanielAbracadaniel Greatest Wizard In All of Ooo. Cantrip!Registered User regular
    Basically, you're either being a dick, or posting irrelevant fluff.

    whoa who is in here biting my style

  • Virgil_Leads_YouVirgil_Leads_You Registered User regular
    edited May 2013
    Pip, one day we will be grey & tired of all this new bullshit.
    We gotta figure out literary comfort food eventually.
    Maybe it will wind up being anything that is intentionally made into a paperback.
    Virgil_Leads_You on
  • A Dabble Of TheloniusA Dabble Of Thelonius Registered User regular
    I enjoyed a couple of Grisham books. I'm sure i read them in my trailer while drinking bud and chewin tobaccy.
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    Steam - Talon Valdez : Xbox Live & LoL - Talonious Monk
  • VivixenneVivixenne Not Mad... Just DisappointedRegistered User regular
    I had no idea Card was a terrible person until I happened across the first few pages of this thread

    hrrrrm
  • ButtlordButtlord Fornicus Lord of Bondage and PainRegistered User regular
    I enjoyed a couple of Grisham books. I'm sure i read them in my trailer while drinking bud and chewin tobaccy.

    ok one night in basic i volunteered to pull all night door guard duty in exchange for not having to do KP the next day

    i read the entirety of the pelican brief over the course of eight hours in a desperate bid to stay awake

    i still do not understand why people were freaking out over it or why pelicans were involved
  • N1tSt4lkerN1tSt4lker Registered User regular
    edited May 2013
    Buttlord wrote: »
    I enjoyed a couple of Grisham books. I'm sure i read them in my trailer while drinking bud and chewin tobaccy.

    ok one night in basic i volunteered to pull all night door guard duty in exchange for not having to do KP the next day

    i read the entirety of the pelican brief over the course of eight hours in a desperate bid to stay awake

    i still do not understand why people were freaking out over it or why pelicans were involved

    I remember quite enjoying The Pelican Brief, but the movie was dumb. It's like the people who made it didn't bother to do even 5 minutes of research about New Orleans. Sadness.

    Edit: I feel the need to say that I don't consider Grisham novels to be high lit, or even good lit. They're enjoyable pulp thrillers, and sometimes that's a good thing.
    N1tSt4lker on
  • DragkoniasDragkonias Registered User regular
    edited May 2013
    Antimatter wrote: »
    the third book, to me, felt rushed, unfocused, and possessed poor word choices in general.

    I thought the first half was pretty good but yeah everything after the mission started kind of felt rushed.
    Dragkonias on
  • Centipede DamascusCentipede Damascus The machine is broken. The universe is broken.Registered User regular
    edited May 2013
    PiptheFair wrote: »
    pratchett is the best YA writer fyi

    you misspelled Diana Wynne Jones
    Centipede Damascus on
  • Munkus BeaverMunkus Beaver Registered User, ClubPA regular
    You would be the first one I have ever seen defend books two and three of the Hunger Games as good prose.

    I literally just said that I'd only make the claim about the third.

    Like three posts above your post.

    No wonder you don't think it's good prose, you're clearly illiterate
    <3

    So you think the third book has good prose.

    But the first doesn't?

    I cannot even fathom this opinion. I cannot wrap my head around this statement. I'm dead, pooro. You killed me.
    "Advanced incompetence is indistinguishable from malice."
    "Humor can be dissected, as a frog can, but it dies in the process."
    Imagine all of my posts being spoken by Alec Baldwin
    GamerTag: MunkusBeaver ||||| Steam: munkus
  • Munkus BeaverMunkus Beaver Registered User, ClubPA regular
    And can we please mark our spoilers for Ender's Game? There's a couple in here that flat out ruin the ending and/or major story beats.
    "Advanced incompetence is indistinguishable from malice."
    "Humor can be dissected, as a frog can, but it dies in the process."
    Imagine all of my posts being spoken by Alec Baldwin
    GamerTag: MunkusBeaver ||||| Steam: munkus
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