[Dota 2] Yep, still in beta.

P10

-12 base damage is a huge nerf to naga. furthermore a huge part of the reason naga was 'op' was because vacuum worked during her ult which got fixed.
undying and am still get played (so does naga, but not as much and people still keep buying radiance with her so they lose). /e: also undying was more 'nerfed' than the patch notes because they fixed bugs regarding decay giving him too much hp
not sure what point you are trying to make.

Jutranjo

You don't need to nerf everything DS has is the point. Unless you want more heroes like morphling in the game.

P10

the difference is morphling had a month where he was super relevant, got nerfed and dropped off completely. dark seer has been on top or relevant for a year and received multiple nerfs over the course of that year.

nerfing his mana costs won't knock him off his pedestal, and if it does, who cares? he's a dumb boring hero who people like because he is brainless and strong

Jutranjo

How is he any more brainless than SVEN BABY. Or Magnus/Tide? He's got _2_ spells that can target allies!

P10

how to lane w/ dark seer:
1. acquire soulring
2. spam ion shell
those heroes at least have to actually know how to last hit, are easier to gank (magnus iffy but also bullshit so), can't handle basically any lane, don't get free win in lane against any melee hero, etc. etc.

Page-

The problem with DS is that he's built for pure utility. You can't keep nerfing him unless you want him to be totally and completely useless. It's not like he's going to be a situational counterpick, or a surprise pick when all the other heroes in his niche are banned. Either he's got utility and you can use him, or he's trashgarbage and nobody will touch him.

As for AM, well he's always been riding that line. Until he got big that one time he was perennially considered to be one of the worst heroes in the game. He could easily slide back there.

Naga's base damage and riptide nerfs were really harsh. She is not a good hard carry and depends on winning lanes to get big. Those nerfs really mangled her trilane potential and basically require her to get quelling blade now to even stand a chance at last hitting in lane, and it takes longer for her to be able to jungle well with illusions.

It's also not always easy to judge the balance of heroes in dota 2 because they're riddled with outstanding bugs. For example, Clockwerk may seem like the hero du jour, but there are like a dozen different ways that cogs don't work properly in dota 2, almost all of them skewed in Clock's favour. If they ever get worked out he may not look as bright as he does now.

P10

the reason dark seer still gets picked: he still farms ridiculously well in many matchups and gets to dominate teamfights w/ fast mek/pipe -> sheepstick/shivas (and his skillset being stronk teamfights)

you can nerf his ability to lane retardedly well without him disappearing. maybe instead of him getting picked/banned every game he'll only get picked to counteract melee carries or to troll certain mids? god, that would be so horrible...
/e: also, revert QoP/Puck base damage buffs.

mts

did they change his attack speed/animation ? i played him recently after not playing him in a while and his windup seemed much longer and screwed with my last hits for a bit

3clipse

Page- wrote: »

For example, Clockwerk may seem like the hero du jour, but there are like a dozen different ways that cogs don't work properly in dota 2, almost all of them skewed in Clock's favour. If they ever get worked out he may not look as bright as he does now.

You say don't work properly in dota 2, I say didn't work properly in WC3 dota.

Jutranjo

P10 wrote: »

the reason dark seer still gets picked: he still farms ridiculously well in many matchups and gets to dominate teamfights w/ fast mek/pipe -> sheepstick/shivas (and his skillset being stronk teamfights)

you can nerf his ability to lane retardedly well without him disappearing. maybe instead of him getting picked/banned every game he'll only get picked to counteract melee carries or to troll certain mids? god, that would be so horrible...
/e: also, revert QoP/Puck base damage buffs.

So how come there's stills DS that are level 1 for like 5 minutes because the enemy trilane isn't letting him have any exp? Or the fact that he's not that good unless he gets solo exp? BH needs 6 and he's bringing you all the utility you need. DS needs atleast 9-11. You want surge lvl 2 so you don't get killed if they can save stuns for after you surge.

Yilias

If their trilane is so strong that DS can't get anything, he can just jungle until the supports start roaming and then go back to lane.

P10

in situations where the enemy trilane can zone out the DS, they would be able to zone out any offlaner*. DS can go jungle, not every offlaner can. Hurr durr.
(QoP/Puck might not die but it would be very risky. Also, they are dumb.)

valiance

Jutranjo wrote: »

P10 wrote: »

the reason dark seer still gets picked: he still farms ridiculously well in many matchups and gets to dominate teamfights w/ fast mek/pipe -> sheepstick/shivas (and his skillset being stronk teamfights)

you can nerf his ability to lane retardedly well without him disappearing. maybe instead of him getting picked/banned every game he'll only get picked to counteract melee carries or to troll certain mids? god, that would be so horrible...
/e: also, revert QoP/Puck base damage buffs.

So how come there's stills DS that are level 1 for like 5 minutes because the enemy trilane isn't letting him have any exp? Or the fact that he's not that good unless he gets solo exp? BH needs 6 and he's bringing you all the utility you need. DS needs atleast 9-11. You want surge lvl 2 so you don't get killed if they can save stuns for after you surge.

then he just goes and farms jungle and comes back when he has the levels to live in the tri.

In any case, who would really miss DS? anyone?

Page-

Dark Seer is a fun hero that can do neat stuff.

Disco11

Dark seer is just such a good pick. There are very little lane match ups that he can't handle.

P10

also to clarify my position a bit i think most/all of the top-tiers right now are deserving of nerfs because i prefer nerfing top-tiers to buffing everyone else because fuck power creep
so its not just that i have a hate boner for dark seer (although i do)

Yilias

LD, LS, and NA are the only matchups I can think of that favor his opponent. Versus Clinkz works until he hits 6, but then you lose every other shell to his ult. Jugg would probably beat him, but I've never played it and can't recall seeing it.

valiance

Yilias wrote: »

LD, LS, and NA are the only matchups I can think of that favor his opponent. Versus Clinkz works until he hits 6, but then you lose every other shell to his ult. Jugg would probably beat him, but I've never played it and can't recall seeing it.

In the same vein of eating ion shelled creeps, theres doom. Of course doom is horrid, and the cd on devour is too long to be an effective counter to shell. But he's there!

sidenote: I am playing as doom RIGHT NOW

3clipse

I had a game as Doom where I just rampaged around the map getting kills and farming and super hard carried my team. Felt good man.

Armlet Doom is the manliest Doom.

Disco11

valiance wrote: »

Yilias wrote: »

LD, LS, and NA are the only matchups I can think of that favor his opponent. Versus Clinkz works until he hits 6, but then you lose every other shell to his ult. Jugg would probably beat him, but I've never played it and can't recall seeing it.

In the same vein of eating ion shelled creeps, theres doom. Of course doom is horrid, and the cd on devour is too long to be an effective counter to shell. But he's there!

sidenote: I am playing as doom RIGHT NOW

But then you lose the benefit of eating a neutral creep.

Jutranjo

Disco11 wrote: »

valiance wrote: »

Yilias wrote: »

LD, LS, and NA are the only matchups I can think of that favor his opponent. Versus Clinkz works until he hits 6, but then you lose every other shell to his ult. Jugg would probably beat him, but I've never played it and can't recall seeing it.

In the same vein of eating ion shelled creeps, theres doom. Of course doom is horrid, and the cd on devour is too long to be an effective counter to shell. But he's there!

sidenote: I am playing as doom RIGHT NOW

But then you lose the benefit of eating a neutral creep.

Well same for clinkz. Is actually surviving in lane worth more or less than eating a neutral creep? The ability stays anyway. Who the hell is LS?

CorriganX

Life Stealer i'd imagine.

BlazeFire

I don't think I've played against Dark Seer yet. Would Lich be a decent counter to ion shell due to sacrifice?

P10

no because you can't sacrifice enemy units
and sacrificing your own units will push your lane backwards which is bad b/c ion shell will push you hard to begin with

/e: having all the in-game vods of competitive games be behind paywalls is a pain in my dick. fak u volvo

BlazeFire

Drr, I'm a tard. Thanks for the gentle correction.

Dark_Side

There really is no hard counter to dark seer. Arguably there really isn't any counter. You hope you can zone him and rob him of the early xp he kind of needs to be worth something mid game. But even that is next to impossible without a significant investment of manpower.

I still think hitting soul ring would solve most of the dark seer issues.

sparkle

thats not true. You can get kills on him with Shadow Demon and a 1-2 buddies for example. Or Disruptor or Rubick.

the best thing to do imo is to play aggressive against him at level 1. they almost always get ion shell first, which means no escape, which means a fairly easy kill. No Surge => easy to zone out => not getting Surge for a long time. And he really needs a level advantage to have a big impact IMO.

Skab

TI3 Hud

Auralynx

If one were going to lane Enigma, I imagine good old Darchow would actually be a pretty solid Seer counter. That would be a really strange lane.

BigKev

That's actually, not a bad idea.

Also, that HUD is swaaaaaaank.

BYToady

That is a good hud.

TehSpectre

Anyone who gets the compendium will get that HUD as well, I believe.

Sirson

Wow sweet HUD. Can't wait to employ that bad boy.

TIFunkalicious

ive had this game installed forever but i won't start playing it without buddies

someone be my dota buddy

TehSpectre

Join the PA lobby in dota2 and yell at nerds.

Also, feel free to friend me on steam.

mts

does anyone know what the evolution of the smeevil courier is in terms of games watched?

mts

oh man this match is a pub game, lots of questionable decisions and already 70 mins

oh shit

rapier duel

Domhnall

That last EG vs. Rox game was kind of amazing.

Saaruto

That ROX.KIS vs EG game 3...wow.

BigKev

Oh wow that game. So back and forth.