Universal Studio's new film in November: Ender's Game

Moriveth

Oh man Ender totally did murder another kid huh

Munkus Beaver

No, not quite.

Kids.

Plural. Pretty sure.

And the first one he kicks the corpse as it lay naked in the shower because of course he doesn't know he didn't kill the kid and you gotta piss on the dogs to let them know who the alpha is woof woof.

Cheeseliker

Wasn't it self-defense? Or am I remembering wrong? I thought the kid was gonna kill him...

Shorty

yeah calling that murder is a gross mischaracterization

it was pretty clearly a case of self-defense

Munkus Beaver

Well, from what I recall

It wasn't the kind of self defense you murder a kid and kick his corpse over.

It was either a fight that Wiggin started because he was tired of being picked on, or he was being picked on and this was his defense.

I've kinda got it summed up in my head as "Wiggin kills a dude before entering basic training because a kid said unkind things about his dick"

EDIT: One of the two kids he kills is in the shower, I can't remember which but I THINK it's the first one.

And I distinctly remember him just kicking the kid over and over after he stopped moving.

And he's all "What? He died? I just thought I was brutalizing an unconscious man to establish my dominance!"

SirEtchwarts

I thought I heard somewhere that Orson Scott Card wrote the swordfight dialogue for Monkey Island?

That was a good contribution to a thing

Shorty

Munkus Beaver wrote: »

Well, from what I recall

It wasn't the kind of self defense you murder a kid and kick his corpse over.

It was either a fight that Wiggin started because he was tired of being picked on, or he was being picked on and this was his defense.

I've kinda got it summed up in my head as "Wiggin kills a dude before entering basic training because a kid said unkind things about his dick"

we are talking about two different events

ender killed two people in the book

the first could probably be called murder in the lowest degree (he didn't intend to kill anyone, just to fuck him up)

the second was absolutely self-defense--if four dudes were to corner me in a shower with the overt aim of kicking my ass, you better believe I'm going to fight like my life depends on it

Rolo

Stilson was a child in Miss Pumphrey’s class at the approximate age of six years old. He attended the same class as Andrew "Ender" Wiggin at this age. He was somewhat of a bully towards Ender Wiggin and was most probable a troublemaker in his class. He was popular, and always had peers following him around.

On the day that Ender had his monitor removed, he opposed Ender, making fun of him and calling him a "third". Stilson soon started throwing punches while the other children held him back. In response, Ender insulted Stilson, stating "you mean it takes this many of you to fight a Third". The others let go of Ender, and at his chance kicked Stilson in the breastbone. Stilson fell to the floor and Ender continued to savagely beat him up, only to make sure that Stilson would never do anything to him again. Stilson died in this encounter, Ender only finding out after the Formic War.

Cheeseliker

From what I recall,

the kid was pretty much set on murdering Ender. He had his goonies with him, waited until Ender was alone, and then fought him one on one. I also remember that the Teachers knew about this, and let it go on as basically another test for Ender.

Munkus Beaver

Shorty wrote: »

yeah calling that

murder is a gross mischaracterization

it was pretty clearly a case of self-defense

Again,

he kills two kids.

One at the battle station, which the book all but spells out HE IS ATTACKED WITH THE INTENT TO KILL

One is at preschool or something, and involves him beating the shit out of a kid until he dies.

I may be mixing the two together in my head as far as what happens, but I think the first one is in a shower, and he kicks the corpse after winning and the second he straight up kills and knows it because he pushes the bone in the nose into the skull.

Munkus Beaver

Shorty wrote: »

Munkus Beaver wrote: »

Well, from what I recall

It wasn't the kind of self defense you murder a kid and kick his corpse over.

It was either a fight that Wiggin started because he was tired of being picked on, or he was being picked on and this was his defense.

I've kinda got it summed up in my head as "Wiggin kills a dude before entering basic training because a kid said unkind things about his dick"

we are talking about two different events

ender killed two people in the book

the first could probably be called murder in the lowest degree (he didn't intend to kill anyone, just to fuck him up)

the second was absolutely self-defense--if four dudes were to corner me in a shower with the overt aim of kicking my ass, you better believe I'm going to fight like my life depends on it

Guys, am I the only one who cares about spoiling this? I mean, it's a book that people should be able to read fresh if they want to, it's not something that you should be assumed to know the events of.

And, again

Oh I didn't mean to kill him, just brutally fuck him up

Doesn't exactly hold water.

Shorty

Munkus Beaver wrote: »

Shorty wrote: »

Munkus Beaver wrote: »

Well, from what I recall

It wasn't the kind of self defense you murder a kid and kick his corpse over.

It was either a fight that Wiggin started because he was tired of being picked on, or he was being picked on and this was his defense.

I've kinda got it summed up in my head as "Wiggin kills a dude before entering basic training because a kid said unkind things about his dick"

we are talking about two different events

ender killed two people in the book

the first could probably be called murder in the lowest degree (he didn't intend to kill anyone, just to fuck him up)

the second was absolutely self-defense--if four dudes were to corner me in a shower with the overt aim of kicking my ass, you better believe I'm going to fight like my life depends on it

Guys, am I the only one who cares about spoiling this? I mean, it's a book that people should be able to read fresh if they want to, it's not something that you should be assumed to know the events of.

And, again

Oh I didn't mean to kill him, just brutally fuck him up

Doesn't exactly hold water.

......that's why I called it murder

reading comprehension

JoeUser

I think it would take the Ender's Game premise and bring it into present, with the government releasing a drone strike game for free. Then the top-rated players would be given special DLC ...

Munkus Beaver

"Probably"
"In the lowest degree"

Shorty

Munkus Beaver wrote: »

"Probably"
"In the lowest degree"

I would have thought that someone who's been to law school would understand the concepts of

1) subjectivity

2) degrees of murder

Hullis

Are we actually having this argument

Dichotomy

well they are

are you including yourself in it

Cheeseliker

Never mind. This is silly

Munkus Beaver

Yeah, which is why it would be murder in the first degree as his intent was to brutally fuck him up and he happened to die in the process.

Murder in the 'least' degree is when your accomplice in a violent felony kills someone while you are committing said felony.

Killing someone in the 2nd degree is basically academic from 1st degree in the majority of districts and utterly indistinguishable sans death penalty. But you take the 'intent to brutally fuck someone up' to 'intent to kill' pretty easy, and that's 1st degree murder right there.

Regardless, you are defending and downplaying something you are calling as murder yourself, which was my point before you got snippy about 'degrees of murder'

sarukun

What about verbal murder in the major third degree

what is the penalty for that?


http://youtu.be/UcTLJ692F70?t=52s

Shorty

Munkus Beaver wrote: »

Yeah, which is why it would be murder in the first degree as his intent was to brutally fuck him up and he happened to die in the process.

Murder in the 'least' degree is when your accomplice in a violent felony kills someone while you are committing said felony.

Killing someone in the 2nd degree is basically academic from 1st degree in the majority of districts and utterly indistinguishable sans death penalty. But you take the 'intent to brutally fuck someone up' to 'intent to kill' pretty easy, and that's 1st degree murder right there.

Regardless, you are defending and downplaying something you are calling as murder yourself, which was my point before you got snippy about 'degrees of murder'

yes

defending

that's what I was doing

it was definitely that

Campion

I think that the real question is:
is there murder in war
or
is war murder
?
Think about it.

Munkus Beaver

Well, moving on, did the book honestly never actually describe the aliens appearances at all? As a child, I didn't understand that it was a british slang so I just assumed the entire time they were insects, and then

The thing with the 'egg' and the 'queen' and the hive mentality.

Were they not bug like at all or was that just a double entendre? Cause that one review earlier basically says that it's 100% about buggering and not at all about bugs.

sarukun

Actually, the real question is

fur is murder, let's go euthanize a bunch of strays.

Campion

Munkus Beaver wrote: »

Well, moving on, did the book honestly never actually describe the aliens appearances at all? As a child, I didn't understand that it was a british slang so I just assumed the entire time they were insects, and then

The thing with the 'egg' and the 'queen' and the hive mentality.

Were they not bug like at all or was that just a double entendre? Cause that one review earlier basically says that it's 100% about buggering and not at all about bugs.

All those reviews are pretty dumb tbh

They are ants, their proper designation is Formics, ants are from the family Formicidae

wandering

I look forward to Orson Scott Card's death, for the sole reason that when it happens I think conversations about his books will be more like "so Ender's Game is a fun book right?" "Yes I agree", and less "So Ender's Game is fun, right?" "Sure, IF YOU'RE A HOMOPHOBE WHO LIKES PEDOPHILIC INCESTUOUS PRO-GENOCIDE HITLER APOLOGIA"

Anyway I think boycotting the movie is a perfectly fine thing to do but man that would be hard for me because I really like the book

Dichotomy

what?

Seriously

I LOOK FORWARD TO ORSON SCOTT CARD'S DEATH, FOR THE SOLE REASON THAT WHEN IT HAPPENS I THINK CONVERSATIONS ABOUT HIS BOOKS WILL BE MORE LIKE "SO ENDER'S GAME IS A FUN BOOK RIGHT?" "YES I AGREE", AND LESS "SO ENDER'S GAME IS FUN, RIGHT?" "SURE, IF YOU'RE A HOMOPHOBE WHO LIKES PEDOPHILIC INCESTUOUS PRO-GENOCIDE HITLER APOLOGIA"

ANYWAY I THINK BOYCOTTING THE MOVIE IS A PERFECTLY FINE THING TO DO BUT MAN THAT WOULD BE HARD FOR ME BECAUSE I REALLY LIKE THAT BOOK

sarukun

The man wants to talk about the book without going into the author's politics.

This isn't a completely unreasonable thing to want to do.

Campion

Anyone who comes out of reading Ender's Game thinking hitler and genocide are okey dokey is probably fucked up to begin with.

Prolegomena

Does anyone know where I can find reviews of Ender's Game from 1985?

sarukun

Okay, I wrote a giant post where I pointed out in pretty obtuse language that Seriously seems to think that wandering is Hitler and that drawing such a conclusion from his post is missing the point of his post, but I was able to condense it into this kind of longish sentence, so, there you go.

sarukun

Dang it I said a buzz word and now the robotic peace keepers are watching my every move.

Dichotomy

sarukun wrote: »

Okay, I wrote a giant post where I pointed out in pretty obtuse language that Seriously seems to think that wandering is Hitler and that drawing such a conclusion from his post is missing the point of his post, but I was able to condense it into this kind of longish sentence, so, there you go.

what are you even talking about

I expressed confusion at wandering's post with the word "what", which is also used colloquially as a term roughly synonymous with "pardon", if somewhat more casual in usage

seriously then took wandering's post and put it in caps and bold as if it was being repeated louder



it was really rather humorous but evidently too subtle

sarukun

Dichotomy wrote: »

sarukun wrote: »

Okay, I wrote a giant post where I pointed out in pretty obtuse language that Seriously seems to think that wandering is Hitler and that drawing such a conclusion from his post is missing the point of his post, but I was able to condense it into this kind of longish sentence, so, there you go.

what are you even talking about

I expressed confusion at wandering's post with the word "what", which is also used colloquially as a term roughly synonymous with "pardon", if somewhat more casual in usage

seriously then took wandering's post and put it in caps and bold as if it was being repeated louder



it was really rather humorous but evidently too subtle

Ah, yes, of course.

KalTorak

Druhim wrote: »

Needless to say most of the people I know who Really Love the book aren’t soldiers, they’re socially-malformed geeks who’re attracted to the ‘meritocratic’ vision of the genius freak, ‘precociously’ outwitting everyone around him, morally pure though his thoughts are bloody and selfish, who wins battles with his brain but secretly is almost superhumanly effective at physical tasks – which you’d never guess to look at him.

Card’s writing comes, I think, from a more plainly geeky wish-fulfillment urge, and is a way of placing the misunderstood genius/asshole at the center of the moral universe. It’s no wonder that Ender spends most of his time lecturing his peers (moral/intellectual inferiors) and playing video games, and it’s no wonder so many people at (e.g.) MIT, where Ender’s Game is a kind of shared keystone text, live identical or very similarly narcissistic lives. The dominant social pathologies at MIT line up neatly with Ender’s own.

yuuuuup

Who wrote that, Dru? Just curious.

wandering

Dichotomy wrote: »

what?

I'm saying I think negativity about OSC's work will go down when he dies, which will be nice for me because I enjoy his work. I think that happened when Michael Jackson died - people didn't really care about the pedophilia thing so much anymore and were more likely to talk about how much they enjoyed his work.

People talk about Ender's Game having all these sinister messages and I don't really buy it - I think it's a novel about empathy and understanding. Peter seems like an awful bully but then the book shows you he's not this two dimensional villain - he's a human like anyone else -

the buggers seem evil but then you come to understand them too. I don't think the good guys commit genocide because OSC thinks genocide is awesome but because it's a book about how even people who commit genocide are human.

sarukun

I mean, there's some reference to evidence of morally ugly messages in Ender's Game posted in this thread.

It's fine that you like Ender's Game and wanna have conversations about it other than "OSC is a shitbag", but you should be able to recognize when the author is giving his heroes the ol' whitewash.

Brian Krakow

Rolo wrote: »

Ender's Game taught me how to become the genius + badass that I am today.

I learned that it's okay to murder children who make you feel bad, as long as you know they're evil.

Part of my long-term goal in life is to use my super genius to write a series of blog posts that are so good that I eventually become a syndicated columnist, and from there get elected as the president of Planet America, despite my well documented sociopathic tendencies and my habit of torturing small animals.

I feel great comfort knowing that I'm both more special and smarter than you.

I didn't know Matt Yglesias posted here.

Machwing

JoeUser wrote: »

I think it would take the Ender's Game premise and bring it into present, with the government releasing a drone strike game for free. Then the top-rated players would be given special DLC ...

oh my god yes this would be so great

just go full balls-out with it, have Ender genocide the shit out of the middle east, and then try to pass it off as okay and he as innocent because he didn't mean to

I would love to see this