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world record [chat]

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Posts

  • HakkekageHakkekage Space Whore Academy summa cum laudeRegistered User regular
    Shivahn wrote: »
    Hakkekage wrote: »
    i can't sleep

    fuck

    Sometimes going away and reading for half an hour helps.

    But : (
    yeah but then i want to keep reading

    hence...this
  • AresProphetAresProphet giggle and the flames grow higher Registered User regular
    I may have wandered off in that last post. Been dranking some wine.

    You got me thinking about what conditions are required to make investment in major technological advancements worthwhile

    I mean if you're a ruler of a feudal society, you need to make sure your people don't completely starve, don't get conquered, and generally aren't living in constant fear for their lives

    And then you need to have enough political stability that you don't need to devote your resources to maintaining a grip on power

    And then you need a merchant class that can take the efforts of specialized labor (miners, foresters, farmers) and turn them into complex goods

    I think that the hypothesis I'm inevitably heading toward is that religion was what provided most of these necessary conditions in Europe. It gives (some) rulers one less reason to try and topple one another. It provides opportunities for alliances rather than wars. It creates a power structure that outlasts any particular ruler or dynasty. It opens up the concept of a non-laboring class (the clergy) that can reallocate resources.

    I am too sleepy to elaborate on it much more, and I'm also sure that I'm not the first to think of it.
    no more need for the old empire
    when the indigo children come
  • AngelHedgieAngelHedgie Registered User regular
    Shivahn wrote: »
    So, one of the big things I'm struggling with is figuring out if I want to stay in Montana anymore. I've always felt out of step here, and it's just been getting more and more acute as of late.

    I honestly think, with what little I know of your situation, that that would be best for you.

    Well, basically, there are two options there:

    1. Wait for the merger to complete, then pursue relocation.

    2. Look for work elsewhere.
    XBL: Nox Aeternum / PSN: NoxAeternum / NN:NoxAeternum
    Nox+Aeternum.gif
    Damn straight and I'm not giving up any of my crazy ground to some no talent hack.
  • AresProphetAresProphet giggle and the flames grow higher Registered User regular
    Alright I need to stop [chat]ting and sleep
    no more need for the old empire
    when the indigo children come
  • ronyaronya hmmm over there!Registered User regular
    I may have wandered off in that last post. Been dranking some wine.

    You got me thinking about what conditions are required to make investment in major technological advancements worthwhile

    I mean if you're a ruler of a feudal society, you need to make sure your people don't completely starve, don't get conquered, and generally aren't living in constant fear for their lives

    And then you need to have enough political stability that you don't need to devote your resources to maintaining a grip on power

    And then you need a merchant class that can take the efforts of specialized labor (miners, foresters, farmers) and turn them into complex goods

    I think that the hypothesis I'm inevitably heading toward is that religion was what provided most of these necessary conditions in Europe. It gives (some) rulers one less reason to try and topple one another. It provides opportunities for alliances rather than wars. It creates a power structure that outlasts any particular ruler or dynasty. It opens up the concept of a non-laboring class (the clergy) that can reallocate resources.

    I am too sleepy to elaborate on it much more, and I'm also sure that I'm not the first to think of it.

    why do you care when the peasants starve as long they pay their taxes
  • MortiousMortious Move to New Zealand Move to New ZealandRegistered User regular
    Hm. Girl I haven't seen for five months just messaged me and said "Hey! I'm married. And pregnant."

    You can hook up with her with no worries then.

    I'm not into fatties.

    She puts out though.
  • HakkekageHakkekage Space Whore Academy summa cum laudeRegistered User regular
    ronya wrote: »
    ronya wrote: »
    ronya wrote: »
    ronya wrote: »
    like, is power secured by controlling cities and any taxable wealth raised there, at fairs or through nascent industries, or by controlling farmland and seizing a portion of the agricultural surplus

    the politics suggests the latter. the described level of technology should be already shifting toward the former.

    There is the problem that very often the realization on the part of the military class that such changes have occurred (and the development of new methods of organizing war) often lags behind the change. By a lot.

    it's a fictional setting with supposedly centuries of stasis!

    the ruling class that the books / movies focus on have been stagnant yeah. But those dirty peasants could well be "inventing" things and being all "productive" in the background totally unbeknownst to them.

    it only took about a millenia for humanity to deforest most of Europe and plant mills and mines all over the place

    depends on where you start counting though.

    If you start looking at things around the 8th century then it's all up up up the ziggaraught zippity quick.

    But that comes after a period of about 600 or 700 years of constant, sometimes rapid, population decline in the same region. It took a little while for the problems of a constantly dropping population to trickle upwards (the Western Roman Empire was still generally considered to be doing ok when it started) but once it began the collapse was inevitable.

    There have been extensive periods in human history where progress was just not an option (see also: 12th-6th centuries BCE in the eastern Mediterranean)

    yes - if you take Essos and its grasslands and said that it was stagnant, I would be fine with that. Grasslands that surround the occasional city have been the status quo of human history since civilization became fashionable

    but a medieval world is not a terribly stable one. It hurtles toward industry.

    From what I recall, and I am not an expert, but wouldn't the labor pool of peasants have to drop rapidly due to plague and/or massively destructive, indiscriminate civil war to force feudal lords to invest in the ones left standing who then enjoy greater status and standard of living
  • AngelHedgieAngelHedgie Registered User regular
    ronya wrote: »
    I may have wandered off in that last post. Been dranking some wine.

    You got me thinking about what conditions are required to make investment in major technological advancements worthwhile

    I mean if you're a ruler of a feudal society, you need to make sure your people don't completely starve, don't get conquered, and generally aren't living in constant fear for their lives

    And then you need to have enough political stability that you don't need to devote your resources to maintaining a grip on power

    And then you need a merchant class that can take the efforts of specialized labor (miners, foresters, farmers) and turn them into complex goods

    I think that the hypothesis I'm inevitably heading toward is that religion was what provided most of these necessary conditions in Europe. It gives (some) rulers one less reason to try and topple one another. It provides opportunities for alliances rather than wars. It creates a power structure that outlasts any particular ruler or dynasty. It opens up the concept of a non-laboring class (the clergy) that can reallocate resources.

    I am too sleepy to elaborate on it much more, and I'm also sure that I'm not the first to think of it.

    why do you care when the peasants starve as long they pay their taxes

    Because starving peasants are unhappy peasants, and unhappy peasants are more likely to storm your keep, rape and cook your wife, then feed her to you prior to killing you.
    XBL: Nox Aeternum / PSN: NoxAeternum / NN:NoxAeternum
    Nox+Aeternum.gif
    Damn straight and I'm not giving up any of my crazy ground to some no talent hack.
  • RiemannLivesRiemannLives Registered User regular
    I would also note that these are a very post-Norman style relationship between the nobility and the peasantry.

    Anglo-Saxon Britain had a generally less directly adversarial relationship.
    What you think "makes sense" has nothing to do with reality. It just has to do with your life experience. And your life experience may only be a small smidgen of reality. Possibly even a distorted account of reality at that. So what this means is that, beginning in the 20th century as our means of decoding nature became more and more powerful, we started realizing our common sense is no longer a tool to pass judgment on whether or not a scientific theory is correct. - Neil Degrasse Tyson
  • ronyaronya hmmm over there!Registered User regular
    ronya wrote: »
    I may have wandered off in that last post. Been dranking some wine.

    You got me thinking about what conditions are required to make investment in major technological advancements worthwhile

    I mean if you're a ruler of a feudal society, you need to make sure your people don't completely starve, don't get conquered, and generally aren't living in constant fear for their lives

    And then you need to have enough political stability that you don't need to devote your resources to maintaining a grip on power

    And then you need a merchant class that can take the efforts of specialized labor (miners, foresters, farmers) and turn them into complex goods

    I think that the hypothesis I'm inevitably heading toward is that religion was what provided most of these necessary conditions in Europe. It gives (some) rulers one less reason to try and topple one another. It provides opportunities for alliances rather than wars. It creates a power structure that outlasts any particular ruler or dynasty. It opens up the concept of a non-laboring class (the clergy) that can reallocate resources.

    I am too sleepy to elaborate on it much more, and I'm also sure that I'm not the first to think of it.

    why do you care when the peasants starve as long they pay their taxes

    Because starving peasants are unhappy peasants, and unhappy peasants are more likely to storm your keep, rape and cook your wife, then feed her to you prior to killing you.

    I think you overestimate the power of a starving peasant mob
  • HakkekageHakkekage Space Whore Academy summa cum laudeRegistered User regular
    ronya wrote: »
    I may have wandered off in that last post. Been dranking some wine.

    You got me thinking about what conditions are required to make investment in major technological advancements worthwhile

    I mean if you're a ruler of a feudal society, you need to make sure your people don't completely starve, don't get conquered, and generally aren't living in constant fear for their lives

    And then you need to have enough political stability that you don't need to devote your resources to maintaining a grip on power

    And then you need a merchant class that can take the efforts of specialized labor (miners, foresters, farmers) and turn them into complex goods

    I think that the hypothesis I'm inevitably heading toward is that religion was what provided most of these necessary conditions in Europe. It gives (some) rulers one less reason to try and topple one another. It provides opportunities for alliances rather than wars. It creates a power structure that outlasts any particular ruler or dynasty. It opens up the concept of a non-laboring class (the clergy) that can reallocate resources.

    I am too sleepy to elaborate on it much more, and I'm also sure that I'm not the first to think of it.

    why do you care when the peasants starve as long they pay their taxes

    Because starving peasants are unhappy peasants, and unhappy peasants are more likely to storm your keep, rape and cook your wife, then feed her to you prior to killing you.

    this is why you have a cadre of higher class knights who have sworn oaths of loyalty to you, have their own plots of land on your land and peasants to work it, and an incentive to fight for you in order to maintain that cushy job
  • RiemannLivesRiemannLives Registered User regular
    also I wonder why a medieval world must necessarily hurtle towards industry when previous cultures that were easily as advanced did not.

    Examples: late bronze age Mediterranean (ie: New Kingdom Egypt, imperial Hatte, Mari, Kassite Babylon etc...). They managed larger populations, had more complex international relations and long distance trade than medieval Europe. And yet come the 12th century BCE they were doomed to collapse and 500 years of darkness.
    What you think "makes sense" has nothing to do with reality. It just has to do with your life experience. And your life experience may only be a small smidgen of reality. Possibly even a distorted account of reality at that. So what this means is that, beginning in the 20th century as our means of decoding nature became more and more powerful, we started realizing our common sense is no longer a tool to pass judgment on whether or not a scientific theory is correct. - Neil Degrasse Tyson
  • HakkekageHakkekage Space Whore Academy summa cum laudeRegistered User regular
    also I wonder why a medieval world must necessarily hurtle towards industry when previous cultures that were easily as advanced did not.

    Examples: late bronze age Mediterranean (ie: New Kingdom Egypt, imperial Hatte, Mari, Kassite Babylon etc...). They managed larger populations, had more complex international relations and long distance trade than medieval Europe. And yet come the 12th century BCE they were doomed to collapse and 500 years of darkness.

    SOCIALISM

    WE'VE BEEN WARNED AMERICA
  • AresProphetAresProphet giggle and the flames grow higher Registered User regular
    ronya wrote: »
    I may have wandered off in that last post. Been dranking some wine.

    You got me thinking about what conditions are required to make investment in major technological advancements worthwhile

    I mean if you're a ruler of a feudal society, you need to make sure your people don't completely starve, don't get conquered, and generally aren't living in constant fear for their lives

    And then you need to have enough political stability that you don't need to devote your resources to maintaining a grip on power

    And then you need a merchant class that can take the efforts of specialized labor (miners, foresters, farmers) and turn them into complex goods

    I think that the hypothesis I'm inevitably heading toward is that religion was what provided most of these necessary conditions in Europe. It gives (some) rulers one less reason to try and topple one another. It provides opportunities for alliances rather than wars. It creates a power structure that outlasts any particular ruler or dynasty. It opens up the concept of a non-laboring class (the clergy) that can reallocate resources.

    I am too sleepy to elaborate on it much more, and I'm also sure that I'm not the first to think of it.

    why do you care when the peasants starve as long they pay their taxes

    dead men pay no taxes

    and can't be conscripted to defend you

    and the religion argument makes this marginally less self-interested. The divine right of kings is just the thin end of the wedge
    no more need for the old empire
    when the indigo children come
  • Dark Raven XDark Raven X Registered User regular
    Day Off Definitely In Tomorrow For Sure

    Gonna use 12% of my newfound timeoff to do valuable work

    And 84% on vidya

    And 30% on studying maths so I don't fail my repeat exam.
    camo_sig2.png
  • ronyaronya hmmm over there!Registered User regular
    edited May 2013
    also I wonder why a medieval world must necessarily hurtle towards industry when previous cultures that were easily as advanced did not.

    Examples: late bronze age Mediterranean (ie: New Kingdom Egypt, imperial Hatte, Mari, Kassite Babylon etc...). They managed larger populations, had more complex international relations and long distance trade than medieval Europe. And yet come the 12th century BCE they were doomed to collapse and 500 years of darkness.

    because those societies derived strength from taxing a resource that wasn't amenable to continual innovation and reinvestment, be it hydraulic empire or locking down a strategic trade route

    for all the glory and strength of the great cities of the middle east, these were fundamentally still relatively small cities surrounded by vast territory which they had much less power over. If these were grasslands, forget it. At best you got hydraulic despotism of the Fertile Crescent, since that gave an effective way of projecting power.

    the staggering difficulty of keeping herders in line meant that even the Ottoman Empire would not be able to achieve it, two and a half millenia later
    ronya on
  • RMS OceanicRMS Oceanic Registered User regular
    In RMS family news, my brother and girlfriend are meeting up at 4pm today to talk about things. We'll see where that goes.
  • AresProphetAresProphet giggle and the flames grow higher Registered User regular
    ronya wrote: »
    also I wonder why a medieval world must necessarily hurtle towards industry when previous cultures that were easily as advanced did not.

    Examples: late bronze age Mediterranean (ie: New Kingdom Egypt, imperial Hatte, Mari, Kassite Babylon etc...). They managed larger populations, had more complex international relations and long distance trade than medieval Europe. And yet come the 12th century BCE they were doomed to collapse and 500 years of darkness.

    because those societies derived strength from taxing a resource that wasn't amenable to continual innovation and reinvestment, be it hydraulic empire or locking down a strategic trade route

    for all the glory and strength of the great cities of the middle east, these were fundamentally still relatively small cities surrounded by vast territory which they had much less power over. If these were grasslands, forget it. At best you got hydraulic despotism of the Fertile Crescent, since that gave an effective way of projecting power.

    And in Europe where resources were less scarce, feudalism largely dwindled as rulers utilized them to make life more stable. This happened in fits and spurts and slowly, but the rise of a merchant class and investment in capital such as mines and mills made serfdom less necessary

    I'm not saying that they did this out of benevolence. If nothing else, having mines (or a trading partner with them) is a prerequisite for making pikes.
    no more need for the old empire
    when the indigo children come
  • ronyaronya hmmm over there!Registered User regular
    ronya wrote: »
    also I wonder why a medieval world must necessarily hurtle towards industry when previous cultures that were easily as advanced did not.

    Examples: late bronze age Mediterranean (ie: New Kingdom Egypt, imperial Hatte, Mari, Kassite Babylon etc...). They managed larger populations, had more complex international relations and long distance trade than medieval Europe. And yet come the 12th century BCE they were doomed to collapse and 500 years of darkness.

    because those societies derived strength from taxing a resource that wasn't amenable to continual innovation and reinvestment, be it hydraulic empire or locking down a strategic trade route

    for all the glory and strength of the great cities of the middle east, these were fundamentally still relatively small cities surrounded by vast territory which they had much less power over. If these were grasslands, forget it. At best you got hydraulic despotism of the Fertile Crescent, since that gave an effective way of projecting power.

    And in Europe where resources were less scarce, feudalism largely dwindled as rulers utilized them to make life more stable. This happened in fits and spurts and slowly, but the rise of a merchant class and investment in capital such as mines and mills made serfdom less necessary

    I'm not saying that they did this out of benevolence. If nothing else, having mines (or a trading partner with them) is a prerequisite for making pikes.

    Russia is a pretty good point against the notion that feudal lords have any interest in non-starvation, actually

    the relationship between the merchant class and the landed nobility was never particularly friendly.
  • CokebotleCokebotle 穴掘りの Registered User regular
    Huh, Iron Man as a Super Saiyan?

    xlarge.png

    I can dig it. *shrug*
    工事中
  • ronyaronya hmmm over there!Registered User regular
    20130506.png

    Damn it. I agree.
  • BobCescaBobCesca Registered User regular
    This low level background headache is really starting to annoy me. Combined with post-migraine fuzziness I'm starting to just get really bored after four days of this.
  • ronyaronya hmmm over there!Registered User regular
    A question for the ages: why did Russia use human labour to tow barges for so long?
  • RMS OceanicRMS Oceanic Registered User regular
    Despite it being a Bank Holiday I am at work, pushing back the tide of communism!
  • Dark Raven XDark Raven X Registered User regular
    Will the post sorting office be open today ya think?
    camo_sig2.png
  • electricitylikesmeelectricitylikesme Registered User regular
    BobCesca wrote: »
    This low level background headache is really starting to annoy me. Combined with post-migraine fuzziness I'm starting to just get really bored after four days of this.

    Have you considered drugs from the not strictly legal class of drugs?
  • RMS OceanicRMS Oceanic Registered User regular
    Will the post sorting office be open today ya think?

    Ich weisse nicht.
  • RMS OceanicRMS Oceanic Registered User regular
    BobCesca wrote: »
    This low level background headache is really starting to annoy me. Combined with post-migraine fuzziness I'm starting to just get really bored after four days of this.

    Have you considered drugs from the not strictly legal class of drugs?

    Please, since when has anybody involved with third level education ever taken illicit substances?
  • MortiousMortious Move to New Zealand Move to New ZealandRegistered User regular
    Our TV has WiFi.

    I find that odd.

    I'm getting old : /
  • Dark Raven XDark Raven X Registered User regular
    Will the post sorting office be open today ya think?

    Ich weisse nicht.

    OK I can figure this out

    Ich is German for "blech, that is gross" right?
    camo_sig2.png
  • RMS OceanicRMS Oceanic Registered User regular
    I think TV's are seeing all those ancilliary features game consoles have and want a piece of the action.

    Yes, they want to watch the Star Trek episode "A Piece of the Action" through inbuilt Netflix functionality!
  • Loren MichaelLoren Michael Registered User regular
    ronya wrote: »
    ronya wrote: »
    also I wonder why a medieval world must necessarily hurtle towards industry when previous cultures that were easily as advanced did not.

    Examples: late bronze age Mediterranean (ie: New Kingdom Egypt, imperial Hatte, Mari, Kassite Babylon etc...). They managed larger populations, had more complex international relations and long distance trade than medieval Europe. And yet come the 12th century BCE they were doomed to collapse and 500 years of darkness.

    because those societies derived strength from taxing a resource that wasn't amenable to continual innovation and reinvestment, be it hydraulic empire or locking down a strategic trade route

    for all the glory and strength of the great cities of the middle east, these were fundamentally still relatively small cities surrounded by vast territory which they had much less power over. If these were grasslands, forget it. At best you got hydraulic despotism of the Fertile Crescent, since that gave an effective way of projecting power.

    And in Europe where resources were less scarce, feudalism largely dwindled as rulers utilized them to make life more stable. This happened in fits and spurts and slowly, but the rise of a merchant class and investment in capital such as mines and mills made serfdom less necessary

    I'm not saying that they did this out of benevolence. If nothing else, having mines (or a trading partner with them) is a prerequisite for making pikes.

    Russia is a pretty good point against the notion that feudal lords have any interest in non-starvation, actually

    Francis Fukuyama had some interesting things to say about why Eastern Europe generally had a bunch of dickbgs at the top.

    I can't remember what those things were though. I think it was partially influenced from the Mongols, partially a result of the relatively hard-to-defend terrain of wide-open Russia relative to the more physically divided Western Europe. Or something. I have the book at home.
    2ezikn6.jpg
  • matt has a problemmatt has a problem Six pack on a dick Registered User regular
  • BobCescaBobCesca Registered User regular
    BobCesca wrote: »
    This low level background headache is really starting to annoy me. Combined with post-migraine fuzziness I'm starting to just get really bored after four days of this.

    Have you considered drugs from the not strictly legal class of drugs?

    Please, since when has anybody involved with third level education ever taken illicit substances?

    At the moment paracetamol is my best friend.

    Time for some more, methinks...
  • electricitylikesmeelectricitylikesme Registered User regular
    Things that make me happy: that I can buy NFC implant chips from a site on the internet.
  • RMS OceanicRMS Oceanic Registered User regular
    edited May 2013
    Will the post sorting office be open today ya think?

    Ich weisse nicht.

    OK I can figure this out

    Ich is German for "blech, that is gross" right?

    Literally it translates to "I know not".

    So in other words, Shrug.gif
    RMS Oceanic on
  • Dark Raven XDark Raven X Registered User regular
    Will the post sorting office be open today ya think?

    Ich weisse nicht.

    OK I can figure this out

    Ich is German for "blech, that is gross" right?

    Literally it translates to "I know not".

    So in other words, Shrug.gif

    Google Translate says

    "I'm Not White"

    They ain't answering the phone anyway. No running shoes or Quarriors today!
    camo_sig2.png
  • electricitylikesmeelectricitylikesme Registered User regular
    I wonder what its like being a sound engineer for a horror game.

    Where you sit in a dark room and make sounds for monsters you can only imagine and not see. You hope.
  • RMS OceanicRMS Oceanic Registered User regular
    Will the post sorting office be open today ya think?

    Ich weisse nicht.

    OK I can figure this out

    Ich is German for "blech, that is gross" right?

    Literally it translates to "I know not".

    So in other words, Shrug.gif

    Google Translate says

    "I'm Not White"

    They ain't answering the phone anyway. No running shoes or Quarriors today!

    But how will you participate in the Belfast Marathon now? :(
  • EddyEddy i ain't afraid of no ghosts Registered User regular
    I wonder what its like being a sound engineer for a horror game.

    Where you sit in a dark room and make sounds for monsters you can only imagine and not see. You hope.

    Did you recently watch Berberian Sound Studio?
This discussion has been closed.