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Posts

  • SarksusSarksus TEN FUCKING DOLLARS Registered User regular
    Winky wrote: »
    Sarksus wrote: »
    Winky wrote: »
    Sarksus wrote: »
    Organichu wrote: »
    Sarksus wrote: »
    Organichu wrote: »
    Sarksus wrote: »
    Organichu wrote: »
    Sarksus wrote: »
    Organichu wrote: »
    Sarksus wrote: »
    Organichu wrote: »
    Sarksus wrote: »
    Pony wrote: »
    Sarksus wrote: »
    Can you be patriotic/proud of something that is average.

    how else could i talk about my weiner

    No, really. I think being proud of something that's average is kind of weird. And if you're proud of something that's above-average doesn't that imply that it's better than other things.

    presumably you would be proud of the parts that are above average, since qualitative ratings like that are granular- i.e. i rule at some stuff and suck at others.

    and for the shitty stuff i guess it becomes more about self-actuation and meaning. like, what does philadelphia mean to me? where despite its grime and awfulness it might have some particular, uniquely associated connection with me where i remember certain wonderful days looking at the skyline.

    Well, to respond to you first, I have a difficult time not letting the bad stuff spoil the good. I favor ambivalence whenever there is a basis for such.

    But where I'm going with that post is that, except in the context of maybe policy making where it would be helpful to know where we are quantitatively ahead or behind, I don't think it's very helpful or normal to consider that stuff in the day to day. It just doesn't figure into my thinking. When I think of my country in the context of the international community and interact with people from other countries I don't feel patriotism is really relevant.

    that first thing seems like your hangup brah. i dunno. i am not big on idolizing country (except getting defensive about cunty europeans, no offense european forum brahs) but things do have dimensions and facets. ain't no place completely great or completely awful.

    Right now I feel like human society is about at the 'getting stabbed non-fatally' level. You're gonna live, but getting stabbed sucks.

    lots of stuff to get excited about broheim. ain't just terrorists and homophobes.

    Well there is also the starvation and genocides.

    blowjobs and milkshakes.

    I would like, give up blowjobs and milkshakes for life if we could tone down the starvation and genocides.

    dogg your depresshuns are making my depresshuns worse

    THE WORLD IS BETTER THAN IT USED TO BE BUT IT STILL SUCKS FOR TOO MANY PEOPLE

    The world has actually never been in a better state. Violence is at an all-time low across the globe, of all categories.

    That's what I said in the first part of my sentence, Winky!

    I mean, it is literally the best it has ever been. That's not just above average, the only reason I can't claim we are sitting at the pinnacle of humanity is because it keeps getting better (not to say that everything can't go to shit, it certainly can, but so far it is not).

    It is like being depressed that your corvette cannot reach 1000 mph.

    It is like being depressed your corvette cannot reach 1000mph, and in your car is someone who will die in an hour but the nearest hospital is a thousand miles away.
  • Evil MultifariousEvil Multifarious Registered User regular
    spool32 wrote: »
    Shivahn wrote: »
    Given my lack of belief in a kind of "free will", the notion of pride is kind of weird to me at a certain level.

    It's easy to reconcile almost anything with lack of belief in free will.

    I do it all the time!

    Of course you do it all the time, you have no choice.

    I knew you'd say that

    DETERMINISM
  • WinkyWinky Registered User regular
    I think, and hope, national barriers are becoming less and less important as technology makes communication and economy more global and less restricted

    We're going to see less and less national loyalty and pride in coming generations in the first world, and I think that's a good thing

    It's fine to have pride in other people, but drawing the line at nationality seems silly to me. I am proud of Americans and Brits and Germans and other people who are largely culturally similar, when they embody the finer values and qualities of that culture. It's harder to find that commonality with more distant nations because there is so much difference, but when I see the man standing in front of the tanks, or a monk who will not retaliate despite any physical harm he suffers, or the courage of artists and writers in China in the face of oppressive government, I feel proud, I suppose. Or maybe just happy and glad.

    National differences just cause so many problems, it seems foolish to glorify them and emphasis difference in so doing.

    To be perfectly honest I don't really associate with my country as an individual. It just happens to be the place where I live.
    vspgsp.jpg
  • evilbobevilbob Registered User regular
    People are terrible on average and I don't like most of them.
  • Loren MichaelLoren Michael Registered User regular
    Pony wrote: »
    Given my lack of belief in a kind of "free will", the notion of pride is kind of weird to me at a certain level.

    to be frank, Loren, I don't know how you function day to day without having some kind of internally agreed upon stopping point to your higher ideals and acknowledging the functional realities of what is observable.

    "Eh... fuck it."
    but then I'm equally mystified by other kinds of deterministic philosophies.

    The alternatives don't make any sense to me.
    2ezikn6.jpg
  • PonyPony Registered User regular
    Abdhyius wrote: »
    Pony wrote: »
    Kagera wrote: »
    Patriotism has no more a loaded and maniacal history as a word or belief than religion.

    Interestingly enough I nowadays make an effort to avoid self-identifying as religious, even though I am and that hasn't really changed

    I just grew incredibly weary of people's demonized, horrific associations with that word and what it meant to them and I got so very, very tired of fighting with people about it.

    I came to understand that's no victory there. There's no winning. There's no point to trying to have the fight with someone about. I gain nothing, even if by the end they agree with me they're no less prejudiced on the subject as when they started, they've just learned a thing not to talk to me about.

    So I just... stopped. In general I've adopted the practice of avoiding all but the least controversial, most easily agreed-upon labels with the most neutral definitions possible outside of people with biases against those labels even existing.

    I'm tired of fighting about this kind of stuff with people. It's why when some folks decided to trot out how much they hate the word the patriotism and started injecting their own personal definitions of the word as if that was what I meant, I just backpedaled and was like "hey whatever it means to you maaaaan"

    anger's a young man's game indeed

    that just makes me curious.

    What kind of definition of "religious" do people use and what to they feel it implies

    i am some kind of literal larry and i take as a statement of "follows a religion... religiously"

    no more, no less

    if a person self-identifies as religious, i make the assumption that they follow a religion of some kind, and do so with some level of adherence that is important enough to them to self-identify as religious

    on the rare occasions i self-identify as such nowadays, that is what i mean.

    but my observation has been many people take "religious" to mean "follows a religion they are personally familiar with, in a way they know"

    so people who only grew up surrounded by Christianity and the version of Christianity they most observed people being adherent to was, for example, Catholic

    will have a tendency to leap to the conclusion that person who says they are religious are self-identifying as if not a Catholic, at the very least a Christian and at the very least, a theist

    and that is tiresome

    incredibly tiresome
  • MazzyxMazzyx Changing the World Order. Registered User regular
    So far I haven't seen good data showing a reduction in national identity or pride. I would I say I have seen more the other way. China's nationalist education producing similar views and results to Japan's nationalist education of the early 1900's. The Arab Spring was pan-national but the actual protesters on the street were for their own countries first. Retrenchment of Russian nationalism under Putin, though he has push back. The rise of the right in Japan and Korea. The delegitimization of the EU do the the Cyprus and Greek banking crises. Tough that I think gets over stated.

    Really to me I see a resurgence in national identity in recent history not a reduction. And I really would tie this more to the economic woes of the World since 2008 than anything else. People tend to hang onto identity more when there such events.
    falasig.png
  • VariableVariable Stroke Me Lady Fame Registered User regular
    I am not particularly patriotic, or I don't think of myself that way, but some of you go so far that I find these conversations hard to read.
    "He who makes a beast of himself gets rid of the pain of being a man" - Dr. Johnson
    Sig%20-%20Reggie%20Watts.png
  • AbdhyiusAbdhyius Registered User regular
    edited May 2013
    Sarksus wrote: »
    Winky wrote: »
    Sarksus wrote: »
    Winky wrote: »
    Sarksus wrote: »
    Organichu wrote: »
    Sarksus wrote: »
    Organichu wrote: »
    Sarksus wrote: »
    Organichu wrote: »
    Sarksus wrote: »
    Organichu wrote: »
    Sarksus wrote: »
    Organichu wrote: »
    Sarksus wrote: »
    Pony wrote: »
    Sarksus wrote: »
    Can you be patriotic/proud of something that is average.

    how else could i talk about my weiner

    No, really. I think being proud of something that's average is kind of weird. And if you're proud of something that's above-average doesn't that imply that it's better than other things.

    presumably you would be proud of the parts that are above average, since qualitative ratings like that are granular- i.e. i rule at some stuff and suck at others.

    and for the shitty stuff i guess it becomes more about self-actuation and meaning. like, what does philadelphia mean to me? where despite its grime and awfulness it might have some particular, uniquely associated connection with me where i remember certain wonderful days looking at the skyline.

    Well, to respond to you first, I have a difficult time not letting the bad stuff spoil the good. I favor ambivalence whenever there is a basis for such.

    But where I'm going with that post is that, except in the context of maybe policy making where it would be helpful to know where we are quantitatively ahead or behind, I don't think it's very helpful or normal to consider that stuff in the day to day. It just doesn't figure into my thinking. When I think of my country in the context of the international community and interact with people from other countries I don't feel patriotism is really relevant.

    that first thing seems like your hangup brah. i dunno. i am not big on idolizing country (except getting defensive about cunty europeans, no offense european forum brahs) but things do have dimensions and facets. ain't no place completely great or completely awful.

    Right now I feel like human society is about at the 'getting stabbed non-fatally' level. You're gonna live, but getting stabbed sucks.

    lots of stuff to get excited about broheim. ain't just terrorists and homophobes.

    Well there is also the starvation and genocides.

    blowjobs and milkshakes.

    I would like, give up blowjobs and milkshakes for life if we could tone down the starvation and genocides.

    dogg your depresshuns are making my depresshuns worse

    THE WORLD IS BETTER THAN IT USED TO BE BUT IT STILL SUCKS FOR TOO MANY PEOPLE

    The world has actually never been in a better state. Violence is at an all-time low across the globe, of all categories.

    That's what I said in the first part of my sentence, Winky!

    I mean, it is literally the best it has ever been. That's not just above average, the only reason I can't claim we are sitting at the pinnacle of humanity is because it keeps getting better (not to say that everything can't go to shit, it certainly can, but so far it is not).

    It is like being depressed that your corvette cannot reach 1000 mph.

    It is like being depressed your corvette cannot reach 1000mph, and in your car is someone who will die in an hour but the nearest hospital is a thousand miles away.

    That's stupid.
    Abdhyius on
    xlh6c3.png
  • AbdhyiusAbdhyius Registered User regular
    okay for fuck's sake
    it's
    not
    determinism
    xlh6c3.png
  • SarksusSarksus TEN FUCKING DOLLARS Registered User regular
    Abdhyius wrote: »
    Sarksus wrote: »
    Winky wrote: »
    Sarksus wrote: »
    Winky wrote: »
    Sarksus wrote: »
    Organichu wrote: »
    Sarksus wrote: »
    Organichu wrote: »
    Sarksus wrote: »
    Organichu wrote: »
    Sarksus wrote: »
    Organichu wrote: »
    Sarksus wrote: »
    Organichu wrote: »
    Sarksus wrote: »
    Pony wrote: »
    Sarksus wrote: »
    Can you be patriotic/proud of something that is average.

    how else could i talk about my weiner

    No, really. I think being proud of something that's average is kind of weird. And if you're proud of something that's above-average doesn't that imply that it's better than other things.

    presumably you would be proud of the parts that are above average, since qualitative ratings like that are granular- i.e. i rule at some stuff and suck at others.

    and for the shitty stuff i guess it becomes more about self-actuation and meaning. like, what does philadelphia mean to me? where despite its grime and awfulness it might have some particular, uniquely associated connection with me where i remember certain wonderful days looking at the skyline.

    Well, to respond to you first, I have a difficult time not letting the bad stuff spoil the good. I favor ambivalence whenever there is a basis for such.

    But where I'm going with that post is that, except in the context of maybe policy making where it would be helpful to know where we are quantitatively ahead or behind, I don't think it's very helpful or normal to consider that stuff in the day to day. It just doesn't figure into my thinking. When I think of my country in the context of the international community and interact with people from other countries I don't feel patriotism is really relevant.

    that first thing seems like your hangup brah. i dunno. i am not big on idolizing country (except getting defensive about cunty europeans, no offense european forum brahs) but things do have dimensions and facets. ain't no place completely great or completely awful.

    Right now I feel like human society is about at the 'getting stabbed non-fatally' level. You're gonna live, but getting stabbed sucks.

    lots of stuff to get excited about broheim. ain't just terrorists and homophobes.

    Well there is also the starvation and genocides.

    blowjobs and milkshakes.

    I would like, give up blowjobs and milkshakes for life if we could tone down the starvation and genocides.

    dogg your depresshuns are making my depresshuns worse

    THE WORLD IS BETTER THAN IT USED TO BE BUT IT STILL SUCKS FOR TOO MANY PEOPLE

    The world has actually never been in a better state. Violence is at an all-time low across the globe, of all categories.

    That's what I said in the first part of my sentence, Winky!

    I mean, it is literally the best it has ever been. That's not just above average, the only reason I can't claim we are sitting at the pinnacle of humanity is because it keeps getting better (not to say that everything can't go to shit, it certainly can, but so far it is not).

    It is like being depressed that your corvette cannot reach 1000 mph.

    It is like being depressed your corvette cannot reach 1000mph, and in your car is someone who will die in an hour but the nearest hospital is a thousand miles away.

    That's stupid.

    I don't think it is.

    The fact that our planet is at the best it's ever been isn't of any comfort to the people whose lives are still shitty.
  • WinkyWinky Registered User regular
    evilbob wrote: »
    People are terrible on average and I don't like most of them.

    No.

    People are cool and I like them.

    They're not perfect but I'm okay with it.
    vspgsp.jpg
  • ronyaronya hmmm over there!Registered User regular
    Regular readers may recall that in 2009 Josh Rust and I surveyed several hundred philosophers and non-philosophers on their opinions about various moral issues; we also asked survey respondents to describe their own behavior on those same issues. Some preliminary results of the study are here, here, here, here, here, and here.

    The biggest divergences in moral opinion concerned our question about "regularly eating the meat of mammals such as beef and pork". 60% of ethics professor respondents rated mammal-meat consumption as morally bad, compared to 45% of non-ethicist philosophers and just 19% of non-philosophers. Opinion also divided by gender and age. Women were about 1.5 times as likely to condemn mammal-meat consumption (55% of women rated it bad vs. 37% of men). There was a similar shift of opinion with age: 55% of respondents born in 1960 or later condemned mammal-meat consumption, compared to 35% born before 1960. One might expect a compound effect for young female philosophers, and indeed it was so: Fully 81% of female philosophers born in 1960 or later said it was morally bad to regularly eat the meat of mammals.

    To put this degree of consensus in perspective: In last year's PhilPapers survey of philosophical opinion, only 82% of philosophers endorsed non-skeptical realism about the existence of an external world. (No word, so far, on how philosophers who deny the existence of an external world feel about seeming to consume meat.)
  • AbdhyiusAbdhyius Registered User regular
    edited May 2013
    Pony wrote: »
    Abdhyius wrote: »
    Pony wrote: »
    Kagera wrote: »
    Patriotism has no more a loaded and maniacal history as a word or belief than religion.

    Interestingly enough I nowadays make an effort to avoid self-identifying as religious, even though I am and that hasn't really changed

    I just grew incredibly weary of people's demonized, horrific associations with that word and what it meant to them and I got so very, very tired of fighting with people about it.

    I came to understand that's no victory there. There's no winning. There's no point to trying to have the fight with someone about. I gain nothing, even if by the end they agree with me they're no less prejudiced on the subject as when they started, they've just learned a thing not to talk to me about.

    So I just... stopped. In general I've adopted the practice of avoiding all but the least controversial, most easily agreed-upon labels with the most neutral definitions possible outside of people with biases against those labels even existing.

    I'm tired of fighting about this kind of stuff with people. It's why when some folks decided to trot out how much they hate the word the patriotism and started injecting their own personal definitions of the word as if that was what I meant, I just backpedaled and was like "hey whatever it means to you maaaaan"

    anger's a young man's game indeed

    that just makes me curious.

    What kind of definition of "religious" do people use and what to they feel it implies

    i am some kind of literal larry and i take as a statement of "follows a religion... religiously"

    no more, no less

    if a person self-identifies as religious, i make the assumption that they follow a religion of some kind, and do so with some level of adherence that is important enough to them to self-identify as religious

    on the rare occasions i self-identify as such nowadays, that is what i mean.

    but my observation has been many people take "religious" to mean "follows a religion they are personally familiar with, in a way they know"

    so people who only grew up surrounded by Christianity and the version of Christianity they most observed people being adherent to was, for example, Catholic

    will have a tendency to leap to the conclusion that person who says they are religious are self-identifying as if not a Catholic, at the very least a Christian and at the very least, a theist

    and that is tiresome

    incredibly tiresome

    oh, like that.

    EDIT: I operate with a very simple definition of what it means that a person is "religious"
    "wrong" :P
    Abdhyius on
    xlh6c3.png
  • PonyPony Registered User regular
    edited May 2013
    Pony wrote: »
    Given my lack of belief in a kind of "free will", the notion of pride is kind of weird to me at a certain level.

    to be frank, Loren, I don't know how you function day to day without having some kind of internally agreed upon stopping point to your higher ideals and acknowledging the functional realities of what is observable.

    "Eh... fuck it."
    but then I'm equally mystified by other kinds of deterministic philosophies.

    The alternatives don't make any sense to me.

    I don't know that I can fix that!

    you're a pretty well-read dude and i respect you, intellectually

    so I generally take on faith that you've familiarized yourself at the very least with the major philosophical thrusts of non-deterministic worldviews

    at the very least from a Western philosophical framework

    given thus

    i'unno that i can make a compelling argument on the subject for you
    Pony on
  • Loren MichaelLoren Michael Registered User regular
    ronya wrote: »
    Pony wrote: »
    Jacobkosh wrote: »
    Pony wrote: »
    Jacobkosh wrote: »
    Pony wrote: »
    being a DC Comics fan these days is like watching your dad descend into alcoholism

    well maybe not your dad

    but like

    your buddy's dad who you thought was kind of a cool guy before

    and you're like

    man

    it's embarrassing as hell

    I read all these names on their books and it's like a who's who of the shitty dark ages of the 90s

    Bob Harras? Howard Mackie? Who the fuck was clamoring to read books written by Howard Mackie?

    meanwhile Marvel is just kind of...there. their comics feel like a vestigial appendage of whatever the movies are doing at the moment.

    so far as i am concerned the "New 52" is basically the most hideous malformed miscarriage of a decent idea I have ever seen

    like

    there have been worse ideas in the world

    but I'm not sure if I ever seen what should have been a good idea fall apart so utterly.

    it's a real shame. they had a lot of momentum (and produced some cool shit!) but it just seems to be grinding to a halt already

    The true problem with New 52 is that they couldn't exercise a real firm definition of what it is retconned and what is not.

    Like, Superman got a reboot and is brand new and everyone is like "Holy shit, have you heard of this Superman?" and Hal Jordan is meeting Batman for the first time and is mystified by the fact that he doesn't have superpowers.

    But Jason Todd is the Red Hood, Brightest Day still happened, and most of Batman's history was untouched... except Barbara is Batgirl and was never Oracle.

    I just

    what?

    like the entire thing smacked of some people wanted to get on board and some people didn't and it turned into a fucking mess because of it

    what's the fucking point of doing a reboot when 50% of the writing staff folds their arms and says "Well I'm not rebooting my stories"

    geoff johns i am scowling at you

    (implying I am ever not scowling at geoff johns)

    still

    when your major stars are running into this problem:

    batmaninc.jpg

    you have to either adapt into becoming Marvel, or reboot.

    The bignams comic companies need more of a general universe editor to keep everything straight and non-stupid.

    Or, they need to behead/fire/whatever the existing shitty universe editors.

    That they apparently had no such thing for a really long time has made their worlds super crazy in a bad-for-storytelling way.
    2ezikn6.jpg
  • ronyaronya hmmm over there!Registered User regular
    Mazzyx wrote: »
    So far I haven't seen good data showing a reduction in national identity or pride. I would I say I have seen more the other way. China's nationalist education producing similar views and results to Japan's nationalist education of the early 1900's. The Arab Spring was pan-national but the actual protesters on the street were for their own countries first. Retrenchment of Russian nationalism under Putin, though he has push back. The rise of the right in Japan and Korea. The delegitimization of the EU do the the Cyprus and Greek banking crises. Tough that I think gets over stated.

    Really to me I see a resurgence in national identity in recent history not a reduction. And I really would tie this more to the economic woes of the World since 2008 than anything else. People tend to hang onto identity more when there such events.

    the cyclical formation of ethnic identities in the balkans is p amusing

    can you imagine this getting off the ground today:

    416px-Skandinavism.jpg

    short of Russia invading or something.
  • ShivahnShivahn Registered User regular
    Winky wrote: »
    evilbob wrote: »
    People are terrible on average and I don't like most of them.

    No.

    People are cool and I like them.

    They're not perfect but I'm okay with it.

    People are people.

    They are cool and terrible and you don't know what one is until it's too late.
  • AbdhyiusAbdhyius Registered User regular
    r/atheism
    xlh6c3.png
  • Evil MultifariousEvil Multifarious Registered User regular
    Mazzyx wrote: »
    So far I haven't seen good data showing a reduction in national identity or pride. I would I say I have seen more the other way. China's nationalist education producing similar views and results to Japan's nationalist education of the early 1900's. The Arab Spring was pan-national but the actual protesters on the street were for their own countries first. Retrenchment of Russian nationalism under Putin, though he has push back. The rise of the right in Japan and Korea. The delegitimization of the EU do the the Cyprus and Greek banking crises. Tough that I think gets over stated.

    Really to me I see a resurgence in national identity in recent history not a reduction. And I really would tie this more to the economic woes of the World since 2008 than anything else. People tend to hang onto identity more when there such events.

    This is interesting.

    My anecdotal experience is obviously meaningless here because a) that's a global issue and b) I live in Canada, where people are vaguely ashamed of their country and are proud of being "nice" and are constantly obsessing over the establishment of a national identity
  • AbdhyiusAbdhyius Registered User regular
    people are not terrible on average. The world isn't bad on average.

    Most of the shit going down in the world are good things.
    xlh6c3.png
  • knitdanknitdan Registered User regular
    The main difference between philosophy and wanking is you get to have an orgasm when you wank.
  • ronyaronya hmmm over there!Registered User regular
    ronya wrote: »
    Pony wrote: »
    Jacobkosh wrote: »
    Pony wrote: »
    Jacobkosh wrote: »
    Pony wrote: »
    being a DC Comics fan these days is like watching your dad descend into alcoholism

    well maybe not your dad

    but like

    your buddy's dad who you thought was kind of a cool guy before

    and you're like

    man

    it's embarrassing as hell

    I read all these names on their books and it's like a who's who of the shitty dark ages of the 90s

    Bob Harras? Howard Mackie? Who the fuck was clamoring to read books written by Howard Mackie?

    meanwhile Marvel is just kind of...there. their comics feel like a vestigial appendage of whatever the movies are doing at the moment.

    so far as i am concerned the "New 52" is basically the most hideous malformed miscarriage of a decent idea I have ever seen

    like

    there have been worse ideas in the world

    but I'm not sure if I ever seen what should have been a good idea fall apart so utterly.

    it's a real shame. they had a lot of momentum (and produced some cool shit!) but it just seems to be grinding to a halt already

    The true problem with New 52 is that they couldn't exercise a real firm definition of what it is retconned and what is not.

    Like, Superman got a reboot and is brand new and everyone is like "Holy shit, have you heard of this Superman?" and Hal Jordan is meeting Batman for the first time and is mystified by the fact that he doesn't have superpowers.

    But Jason Todd is the Red Hood, Brightest Day still happened, and most of Batman's history was untouched... except Barbara is Batgirl and was never Oracle.

    I just

    what?

    like the entire thing smacked of some people wanted to get on board and some people didn't and it turned into a fucking mess because of it

    what's the fucking point of doing a reboot when 50% of the writing staff folds their arms and says "Well I'm not rebooting my stories"

    geoff johns i am scowling at you

    (implying I am ever not scowling at geoff johns)

    still

    when your major stars are running into this problem:

    batmaninc.jpg

    you have to either adapt into becoming Marvel, or reboot.

    The bignams comic companies need more of a general universe editor to keep everything straight and non-stupid.

    Or, they need to behead/fire/whatever the existing shitty universe editors.

    That they apparently had no such thing for a really long time has made their worlds super crazy in a bad-for-storytelling way.

    naw I think that would halt the stream of unexpected successes. see: hawkeye, which actually fits badly into the MU

    but the strategy of throwing crap at the wall to see what sticks works only if someone gets to select what sticks in a sensible manner

  • MazzyxMazzyx Changing the World Order. Registered User regular
    ronya wrote: »
    Mazzyx wrote: »
    So far I haven't seen good data showing a reduction in national identity or pride. I would I say I have seen more the other way. China's nationalist education producing similar views and results to Japan's nationalist education of the early 1900's. The Arab Spring was pan-national but the actual protesters on the street were for their own countries first. Retrenchment of Russian nationalism under Putin, though he has push back. The rise of the right in Japan and Korea. The delegitimization of the EU do the the Cyprus and Greek banking crises. Tough that I think gets over stated.

    Really to me I see a resurgence in national identity in recent history not a reduction. And I really would tie this more to the economic woes of the World since 2008 than anything else. People tend to hang onto identity more when there such events.

    the cyclical formation of ethnic identities in the balkans is p amusing

    can you imagine this getting off the ground today:

    416px-Skandinavism.jpg

    short of Russia invading or something.

    You never know we could get another Tito.
    falasig.png
  • WinkyWinky Registered User regular
    We should probably stop eating meat.

    No, you stop first.
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  • SarksusSarksus TEN FUCKING DOLLARS Registered User regular
    Abdhyius wrote: »
    people are not terrible on average. The world isn't bad on average.

    Most of the shit going down in the world are good things.

    Can you quantify this in some way.
  • AbdhyiusAbdhyius Registered User regular
    Mazzyx wrote: »
    ronya wrote: »
    Mazzyx wrote: »
    So far I haven't seen good data showing a reduction in national identity or pride. I would I say I have seen more the other way. China's nationalist education producing similar views and results to Japan's nationalist education of the early 1900's. The Arab Spring was pan-national but the actual protesters on the street were for their own countries first. Retrenchment of Russian nationalism under Putin, though he has push back. The rise of the right in Japan and Korea. The delegitimization of the EU do the the Cyprus and Greek banking crises. Tough that I think gets over stated.

    Really to me I see a resurgence in national identity in recent history not a reduction. And I really would tie this more to the economic woes of the World since 2008 than anything else. People tend to hang onto identity more when there such events.

    the cyclical formation of ethnic identities in the balkans is p amusing

    can you imagine this getting off the ground today:

    416px-Skandinavism.jpg

    short of Russia invading or something.

    You never know we could get another Tito.

    ronya what do you mean this getting off the ground today

    the herring salad in the swedish and norwegian flags are gone and we're not going to have another personal union anytime soon

    but like, other than that, that's how it is
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  • PonyPony Registered User regular
    Abdhyius wrote: »
    r/atheism

    pretty much encapsulates the sort of viewpoint that led to me stopping from self-identifying as religious in most company

    the problem wasn't people who merely weren't religious. or people who were religious but for a different religion than mine

    those folks were never the problem for me

    the problem was the people whose animosity towards religion became it's own...

    ...fetish
  • spool32spool32 Contrary Library Registered User regular
    I think I should become king of the world, and then we won't need to worry about national identities.

    You'll all be spoolians and you'll like it.
    Successful Kickstarter get! Drop by Bare Mettle Entertainment if you'd like to see what we're making.
  • WinkyWinky Registered User regular
    Sarksus wrote: »
    Abdhyius wrote: »
    people are not terrible on average. The world isn't bad on average.

    Most of the shit going down in the world are good things.

    Can you quantify this in some way.

    Yes, let me get a measurement from my "world happiness meter".

    Good god Sarksus, these utilitons are off the chart!
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  • Evil MultifariousEvil Multifarious Registered User regular
    knitdan wrote: »
    The main difference between philosophy and wanking is you get to have an orgasm when you wank.

    that, and also that philosophy has had a wide ranging quantifiably positive effect on the world, while wanking is the time devouring shoulder demon who wants us to be late for work and spend more money on socks
  • ronyaronya hmmm over there!Registered User regular
    edited May 2013
    Mazzyx wrote: »
    ronya wrote: »
    Mazzyx wrote: »
    So far I haven't seen good data showing a reduction in national identity or pride. I would I say I have seen more the other way. China's nationalist education producing similar views and results to Japan's nationalist education of the early 1900's. The Arab Spring was pan-national but the actual protesters on the street were for their own countries first. Retrenchment of Russian nationalism under Putin, though he has push back. The rise of the right in Japan and Korea. The delegitimization of the EU do the the Cyprus and Greek banking crises. Tough that I think gets over stated.

    Really to me I see a resurgence in national identity in recent history not a reduction. And I really would tie this more to the economic woes of the World since 2008 than anything else. People tend to hang onto identity more when there such events.

    the cyclical formation of ethnic identities in the balkans is p amusing

    can you imagine this getting off the ground today:

    416px-Skandinavism.jpg

    short of Russia invading or something.

    You never know we could get another Tito.

    Tito needed to get Yugoslavia wealthy, growing rapidly, and underpinned with a multi-ethnic cronyist elite before he died

    which he didn't. meh.
    ronya on
  • MazzyxMazzyx Changing the World Order. Registered User regular
    Mazzyx wrote: »
    So far I haven't seen good data showing a reduction in national identity or pride. I would I say I have seen more the other way. China's nationalist education producing similar views and results to Japan's nationalist education of the early 1900's. The Arab Spring was pan-national but the actual protesters on the street were for their own countries first. Retrenchment of Russian nationalism under Putin, though he has push back. The rise of the right in Japan and Korea. The delegitimization of the EU do the the Cyprus and Greek banking crises. Tough that I think gets over stated.

    Really to me I see a resurgence in national identity in recent history not a reduction. And I really would tie this more to the economic woes of the World since 2008 than anything else. People tend to hang onto identity more when there such events.

    This is interesting.

    My anecdotal experience is obviously meaningless here because a) that's a global issue and b) I live in Canada, where people are vaguely ashamed of their country and are proud of being "nice" and are constantly obsessing over the establishment of a national identity

    If I ran off my experience of the two countries I have lived in extended periods of time I would come to opposite conclusion and that national identity wasn't just rising but is one of the main forces in politics, even if it is done so quietly.

    But the more you read from a lot of countries the more you see national identities really superseding all other identities. And as @Ronya pointed out we have a lot of those tied to ethnic identities.

    Which I think is one of the few things the post-Colonialist get right is that colonialism had the after effect of developing a stronger form of ethnocentrism in many places than what was there previously.
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  • OrganichuOrganichu Registered User regular
    what an unpleasant convo sarksus i can't imagine this is good for you
  • WinkyWinky Registered User regular
    Sarksus, it's important to be dissatisfied with the state of the world and do something about it.

    But it's also important to be glad that your dissatisfaction is working.
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  • ronyaronya hmmm over there!Registered User regular
    Abdhyius wrote: »
    Mazzyx wrote: »
    ronya wrote: »
    Mazzyx wrote: »
    So far I haven't seen good data showing a reduction in national identity or pride. I would I say I have seen more the other way. China's nationalist education producing similar views and results to Japan's nationalist education of the early 1900's. The Arab Spring was pan-national but the actual protesters on the street were for their own countries first. Retrenchment of Russian nationalism under Putin, though he has push back. The rise of the right in Japan and Korea. The delegitimization of the EU do the the Cyprus and Greek banking crises. Tough that I think gets over stated.

    Really to me I see a resurgence in national identity in recent history not a reduction. And I really would tie this more to the economic woes of the World since 2008 than anything else. People tend to hang onto identity more when there such events.

    the cyclical formation of ethnic identities in the balkans is p amusing

    can you imagine this getting off the ground today:

    416px-Skandinavism.jpg

    short of Russia invading or something.

    You never know we could get another Tito.

    ronya what do you mean this getting off the ground today

    the herring salad in the swedish and norwegian flags are gone and we're not going to have another personal union anytime soon

    but like, other than that, that's how it is

    the flag is from a pro-scandinavian-federation movement during the era of german and italian unification
  • SarksusSarksus TEN FUCKING DOLLARS Registered User regular
    Organichu wrote: »
    what an unpleasant convo sarksus i can't imagine this is good for you

    Well it doesn't make me sad. It just makes me apathetic.

    So it's bad for my career as it makes me not want to pursue anything that has to do with society, but I am content.

    When I'm on meds this will probably clear up.
  • spool32spool32 Contrary Library Registered User regular
    Would anyone like to play Magicka?

    It si a good game I was playing with the kids but now they're all in bed.

    As an aside, Steam via Big Picture is cool and you can play 2p Magicka on the same giant monitor by plugging in two xbox controllers.
    Successful Kickstarter get! Drop by Bare Mettle Entertainment if you'd like to see what we're making.
  • wanderingwandering Registered User regular
    edited May 2013
    America is pretty okay

    Other countries have better health care though
    And less violence
    And better education systems
    And a better social safety net
    And less starvation
    And less executions and less solitary confinement and less people in prison and shorter prison terms and a larger focus on rehabilitation of prisoners and less draconian drug laws
    And a more knowledgeable populace
    And less littering
    And better LGBT protections
    And
    wandering on
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This discussion has been closed.