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A Thread of A Series of Books of A Song of Ice and Fire (BOOK AND TV SPOILERS HERE)

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Posts

  • valiancevaliance Registered User regular
    mcdermott wrote: »
    Book readers are supposed to know, show viewers are supposed to maybe pick up on a few key visual hints (Bolton's banner being the major one), but not necessarily know. It's one of the reasons the storyline is frustrating.

    See, and the people I know that are show only don't seem to even make that connection, and I wasn't sure if that was just them.

    Like, banners sure, but what percentage of viewers even notice banners other than wolves and lions? Half my friends can't even name most of the main characters.

    When they seem confused I've taken to suggesting they read the books. They do read fantasy series, so it's not a crazy suggestion, and as the show goes on it feels more and more like Harry Potter to me...the movies are only good as a visual aid to the books. They don't entirely make sense on their own, too much is lost or glossed over.

    The first season wasn't so bad, the story was tighter then. But now? I have no idea how show viewers who don't hang out all day on forums even keep up.
    riz wrote: »
    mcdermott wrote: »
    The first season wasn't so bad, the story was tighter then. But now? I have no idea how show viewers who don't hang out all day on forums even keep up.

    I was honestly confused after just season 1, wondering why people who only watched the show cared THAT MUCH about the show and the characters. The plot is more straightforward but the history of the world and the characters, and their internal motivations, is such a huge part of the books which is not so much present in the show. And it just gets even crazier. Of course I'm ecstatic that people love it enough to keep it running and get a bigger budget, etc., but I'll never quite understand it.

    Also that climbing gear picture is amazing. The colors!

    Yeah I have one show only friend who has no idea who anyone is, and honestly isn't even sure why he keeps watching. Trying to put myself in his shoes I can totally see where he's coming from, this show is insanely complex. I told him to read the books but he just doesn't have the time right now. I really am shocked the show has done as well as it had given how potentially incomprehensible it can all be.
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  • mcdermottmcdermott Registered User regular
    I'll go so far as to say that absent the crutch of the books, this actually...isn't a great show.

    It's got great characters, and actors, and moments...but trying to sit and watch it would be excruciating.
  • Kipling217Kipling217 Registered User regular
    shryke wrote: »
    They aren't gonna show Theon torturing anyone because that would kinda ruin where his character is supposed to be for the events of ADWD and his development there. He's supposed to be broken, he's not supposed to become the enemy.

    That's the thing, Theon becomes Reek, with a severe case of Stockholm Syndrome. He basically becomes Ramsay's henchman, desperately sucking up to him, essentially raping a girl because Ramsay tells him to. showing Theon doing nasty things to avoid even nastier things happening to himself is a part of that process. Having him torture is a way to break him and proof that he has broken. Abusers perpetuating the cycle of abuse kind of thing.

    Hell, Theon's dad is not long for this world, Neither is Rob, his best friend and closest thing to a brother. Rejected by everyone, hated by everyone. That is Theon's life in the next few seasons. We are going to see him fall far, before he gets back up.
    Communicating from the last of the Babylon Stations.
  • BubbyBubby Registered User regular
    It took until the most recent episode for the AV Club's newbie reviewer to notice, and they're paid to do this. I don't think Sepinwall has. A few of the more obsessive people on various forums have gotten it. So yeah, it's a subtle thing. One of the cuts last week did make it pretty obvious though. From torture to Bolton with Jaime and Brienne or vice versa.

    If there were no books, this would be something for the obsessive fan theorists to pick up. I think that since there *are* books, this really puts people off obsessively theorizing. Where's the fun, when you could be proved right or wrong with one glance at wikipedia?

    I don't understand why obsessive show fans don't just read the books. If they have time to post on forums and theorize about shit, they have time to read the books. Hell, any loyal fan should try and do the same thing. Without a doubt the best fantasy novels since Lord of the Rings.
  • CelestialBadgerCelestialBadger Registered User regular
    Bubby wrote: »
    It took until the most recent episode for the AV Club's newbie reviewer to notice, and they're paid to do this. I don't think Sepinwall has. A few of the more obsessive people on various forums have gotten it. So yeah, it's a subtle thing. One of the cuts last week did make it pretty obvious though. From torture to Bolton with Jaime and Brienne or vice versa.

    If there were no books, this would be something for the obsessive fan theorists to pick up. I think that since there *are* books, this really puts people off obsessively theorizing. Where's the fun, when you could be proved right or wrong with one glance at wikipedia?

    I don't understand why obsessive show fans don't just read the books. If they have time to post on forums and theorize about shit, they have time to read the books. Hell, any loyal fan should try and do the same thing. Without a doubt the best fantasy novels since Lord of the Rings.

    Because they are longer than "War and Peace", probably.
  • mcdermottmcdermott Registered User regular
    I know people who have read longer (like the WoT books) and still balk because they want to "just watch the show."

    Then they're all "who the fuck is THAT guy?"

    Yeah. Just watch the show. Let me know how that works for you.
  • BubbyBubby Registered User regular
    edited May 2013
    Length shouldn't matter. If you're so invested in the show, wouldn't the idea of a series of huge books that go deeper into this thing you're really interested in excite you? It did for me after Season 1. Being able to set aside 2 hours a week or whatever to read them shouldn't be hard, people who say they're "too busy" to read usually just don't want to read for personal reasons. It would take months if not an entire year to read them all going at that slow of a pace, but it's still doable.
    Bubby on
  • DracomicronDracomicron Registered User regular
    shryke wrote: »
    They aren't gonna show Theon torturing anyone because that would kinda ruin where his character is supposed to be for the events of ADWD and his development there. He's supposed to be broken, he's not supposed to become the enemy.

    Technically, having him torture people would be the most efficient way of showing that he's broken. I think the TV audience would get that he's torturing people because he will die if he doesn't (and he's essentially a coward), not because he enjoys it.

    That would actually track with his actions in Winterfell during ADWD (he does some horrible things because Ramsay makes him, but strives for redemption when he is able).
  • poshnialloposhniallo Registered User regular
    I don't think length is the barrier for someone who read WOT.

    I don't think length is the barrier for many people. Some people just find reading really demanding, and don't read much. Some people like that are very clever too - I know people with higher degrees in STEM subjects who don't read for pleasure. They're just not into words.

    If someone read WOT then I just think it's going to be a difference of taste. I hated WOT. It was like, the anti-AGOT. Same genre, multiple-POV chapters, long, terrible writing and plotting. Like The Sword of Shannara compared to LOTR. Very different books.
    Neal Stephenson wrote:
    It was, of course, nothing more than sexism, the especially virulent type espoused by male techies who sincerely believe that they are too smart to be sexists.
  • BubbyBubby Registered User regular
    Should I jump into Malazan? I've had the first two books sitting here for a while...
  • KanaKana Registered User regular
    At the very least just rewatch the previous season before starting in on the new one. I mean if I read a big book a year ago and then try to pick up the sequel I'm gonna have some forgetfulness issues too.
  • shrykeshryke Registered User regular
    Kipling217 wrote: »
    shryke wrote: »
    They aren't gonna show Theon torturing anyone because that would kinda ruin where his character is supposed to be for the events of ADWD and his development there. He's supposed to be broken, he's not supposed to become the enemy.

    That's the thing, Theon becomes Reek, with a severe case of Stockholm Syndrome. He basically becomes Ramsay's henchman, desperately sucking up to him, essentially raping a girl because Ramsay tells him to. showing Theon doing nasty things to avoid even nastier things happening to himself is a part of that process. Having him torture is a way to break him and proof that he has broken. Abusers perpetuating the cycle of abuse kind of thing.

    Hell, Theon's dad is not long for this world, Neither is Rob, his best friend and closest thing to a brother. Rejected by everyone, hated by everyone. That is Theon's life in the next few seasons. We are going to see him fall far, before he gets back up.

    Theon doesn't do anything terrible for Ramsay. All we really see him do is gently cut a girl's clothes off who was about to undress anyway and eat her out. Theon does not perpetuate a cycle of abuse, he cringes in fear.
  • mcdermottmcdermott Registered User regular
    poshniallo wrote: »
    I don't think length is the barrier for someone who read WOT.

    I don't think length is the barrier for many people. Some people just find reading really demanding, and don't read much. Some people like that are very clever too - I know people with higher degrees in STEM subjects who don't read for pleasure. They're just not into words.

    If someone read WOT then I just think it's going to be a difference of taste. I hated WOT. It was like, the anti-AGOT. Same genre, multiple-POV chapters, long, terrible writing and plotting. Like The Sword of Shannara compared to LOTR. Very different books.

    I mentioned WoT just because I wanted it to be clear that I don't believe length to be a barrier.

    And I don't think it's a taste thing, given they haven't even cracked ASOIF, and love the show.

    It's just that some people seem to think there's benefit to the "pure" enjoyment of the show in its show form, without the books clouding it. Or...something. Like, if WoT had been a show he wouldn't have read those either, assuming he'd started the show first.

    I think the thing is that people don't want the show "spoiled." Which is silly, because it's not "spoiled" if you're still coming upon it as a story in another format, but whatever. They're invested in it as a show, and want to "experience" it as a show. I guess I understand, it's not like you'd pause a movie halfway through, then read the book, then finish the movie. But seriously, I do pity anybody who continues trying to wade through this. I stick by my Harry Potter comparison, though in fairness those books barely made sense as books (and I liked them). But pulling half the content out for the movie made them nonsensical, and I can't imagine why anybody would have watched those as standalone movies, rather than "hey, I wonder what this scene from the book will look like on screen."

    And this is precisely how I feel about this show. I'm interesting in watching key scenes unfold on screen. I love watching the characters interact. Otherwise? It's a mess, as far as story goes.
  • shrykeshryke Registered User regular
    edited May 2013
    Bubby wrote: »
    Should I jump into Malazan? I've had the first two books sitting here for a while...

    Eh. It's convoluted, long and really, really sloppy. It has some fun stuff though and some people like it.
    shryke on
  • Inquisitor77Inquisitor77 a.k.a. Nubmonger, 2 x Penny Arcade Fight Club Champion Oakland, CARegistered User regular
    The real benefit of the books wrt the show is that it basically serves as core canon and a head writer all in one. They have much fewer problems with trying to maintain a coherent story as it is being written with a writing cast in the dozens. And many of the writing decisions turn into questions of execution rather than substance (e.g. "How do we want to show Jaime losing his hand?" vs. "Should Jaime lose his hand?"). In addition, GRRM himself is available to help mediate or at least weigh in on the purpose of certain plot points, characters, etc. and how important it is to keep them intact or whether it is possible to simply roll them up into a different format as long as the "main point" gets across.

    I can't imagine how difficult a creative endeavor of this magnitude can be to corral when the very first part - the writing - is not nearly so well-trodden.

    I know tons of people who only watch the show, and I don't think it's strictly necessary to get everything that is going on in order to enjoy it. The show, much like the book, has plenty of layers that may not be seen in the first viewing. I have a friend who really just enjoys the intrigue, and even though she doesn't follow everything or remember all the characters' names, she loves watching just to see what happens next. It's not a lot different from having favorite character POVs or not understanding all the prophecies/foreshadowing in the books the first time through.
    HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA no.
  • shrykeshryke Registered User regular
    mcdermott wrote: »
    poshniallo wrote: »
    I don't think length is the barrier for someone who read WOT.

    I don't think length is the barrier for many people. Some people just find reading really demanding, and don't read much. Some people like that are very clever too - I know people with higher degrees in STEM subjects who don't read for pleasure. They're just not into words.

    If someone read WOT then I just think it's going to be a difference of taste. I hated WOT. It was like, the anti-AGOT. Same genre, multiple-POV chapters, long, terrible writing and plotting. Like The Sword of Shannara compared to LOTR. Very different books.

    I mentioned WoT just because I wanted it to be clear that I don't believe length to be a barrier.

    And I don't think it's a taste thing, given they haven't even cracked ASOIF, and love the show.

    It's just that some people seem to think there's benefit to the "pure" enjoyment of the show in its show form, without the books clouding it. Or...something. Like, if WoT had been a show he wouldn't have read those either, assuming he'd started the show first.

    I think the thing is that people don't want the show "spoiled." Which is silly, because it's not "spoiled" if you're still coming upon it as a story in another format, but whatever. They're invested in it as a show, and want to "experience" it as a show. I guess I understand, it's not like you'd pause a movie halfway through, then read the book, then finish the movie. But seriously, I do pity anybody who continues trying to wade through this. I stick by my Harry Potter comparison, though in fairness those books barely made sense as books (and I liked them). But pulling half the content out for the movie made them nonsensical, and I can't imagine why anybody would have watched those as standalone movies, rather than "hey, I wonder what this scene from the book will look like on screen."

    And this is precisely how I feel about this show. I'm interesting in watching key scenes unfold on screen. I love watching the characters interact. Otherwise? It's a mess, as far as story goes.

    I think you are selling the show short by alot. I don't think it's a great show, but it is a pretty good show and it's far from a mess.
  • TofystedethTofystedeth veni, veneri, vamoosi Registered User regular
    Yeah, I'm fairly certain the massive ratings and piracy numbers it's putting up aren't just all people who've read the books.
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  • Jubal77Jubal77 Registered User regular
    The hottest trending names – those that rose the most in popularity in 2012 – are the military-inspired Major (for boys) and Arya/Aria for girls, perhaps inspired by characters on “Game of Thrones” and "Pretty Little Liars."

    Baby names for the last year. Little OT but thought it was coo.
    Moo.
  • KanaKana Registered User regular
    I always thought Arya was a pretty name
  • BlendtecBlendtec PittsburghRegistered User regular
    Jubal77 wrote: »
    The hottest trending names – those that rose the most in popularity in 2012 – are the military-inspired Major (for boys) and Arya/Aria for girls, perhaps inspired by characters on “Game of Thrones” and "Pretty Little Liars."

    Baby names for the last year. Little OT but thought it was coo.

    I'm waiting for the sudden increase of illegitimate kids with middle names like snow, rivers, storm and sand.
    I also go by Twinkie in some games. Add me on Steam!
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  • BobbleBobble Registered User regular
    Jubal77 wrote: »
    The hottest trending names – those that rose the most in popularity in 2012 – are the military-inspired Major (for boys) and Arya/Aria for girls, perhaps inspired by characters on “Game of Thrones” and "Pretty Little Liars."

    Baby names for the last year. Little OT but thought it was coo.

    I wonder if Joffrey and any variations thereof have seen any kind of decline.
  • TofystedethTofystedeth veni, veneri, vamoosi Registered User regular
    Bobble wrote: »
    Jubal77 wrote: »
    The hottest trending names – those that rose the most in popularity in 2012 – are the military-inspired Major (for boys) and Arya/Aria for girls, perhaps inspired by characters on “Game of Thrones” and "Pretty Little Liars."

    Baby names for the last year. Little OT but thought it was coo.

    I wonder if Joffrey and any variations thereof have seen any kind of decline.

    Well, Ned had been doing well but is no longer pulling ahead.
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  • So It GoesSo It Goes Sip. Sip sip sippy. Dumb whores. Best friends.Registered User regular
    mcdermott wrote: »
    I'll go so far as to say that absent the crutch of the books, this actually...isn't a great show.

    It's got great characters, and actors, and moments...but trying to sit and watch it would be excruciating.

    man what? my friends don't need the books, neither did I in season one
    NO.
  • knitdanknitdan Registered User regular
    You know what baby name trend I hope stops?

    Taking a word or name and making it backwards.
  • TofystedethTofystedeth veni, veneri, vamoosi Registered User regular
    edited May 2013
    What do you have against T S Eliot?
    Tofystedeth on
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  • valiancevaliance Registered User regular
    Bubby wrote: »
    Length shouldn't matter. If you're so invested in the show, wouldn't the idea of a series of huge books that go deeper into this thing you're really interested in excite you? It did for me after Season 1. Being able to set aside 2 hours a week or whatever to read them shouldn't be hard, people who say they're "too busy" to read usually just don't want to read for personal reasons. It would take months if not an entire year to read them all going at that slow of a pace, but it's still doable.

    Disagree. It's a huge time investment. The series from AGOT to ADWD is 1.77 million words. At the low end of the average adult reading speed (250 WPM), thats 118 hrs. Even just through ASOS its a million words, which takes 70 hrs.

    By comparison the entire LOTR series is 473k words. ASOS alone is 424k words!!!

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    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Words_per_minute
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  • KanaKana Registered User regular
    Even just through ASOS its a million words, which takes 70 hrs.

    Uh, has it taken anyone in this thread 70 hours or anywhere close to it to read ASOS?

    I think you're so busy trying to be clever that you're not noticing your claims are kinda ridiculous
  • Loren MichaelLoren Michael Registered User regular
    The claim is that reading GoT+CoK+SoS is 70 hours.
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  • Cobalt60Cobalt60 Registered User regular
    Oh god. I know we really shouldn't be stalking the TV show thread but...
    Showthread wrote:
    I like how Robb is finally doing what I have been screaming at him to do since the battle of the Blackwater by attacking Casterly Rock. Why it took him this long to realize it is beyond me. It seems especially dumb now that we've learned waiting around caused the Karstarks to abandon him. Just feeling especially smug that I called this (and Davos being alive, although I'm too lazy to quote the relevant posts) ages ago. smugface

    edit: And no I haven't read the books, only book one and that was after I watched the episodes.

    Here's my new future prediction (spoilered since I'm so damn scary accurate)
    The White Walkers are going to bring down the wall when they cross it, either by explodey magic or ritual or some kind of giant wooly mammoth ice Kaiju. I mean, I don't see them climbing it or politely waiting in line to use the elevator/passage way's. Either way the wall is getting seriously fucked up in some fashion.. and I imagine most of the remaining Night's Watch will die along with it.

    EPISODE 9 COME TO ME.
    CobaltSixty.png
  • shrykeshryke Registered User regular
    What kind of person are we talking about here though?
  • Giggles_FunsworthGiggles_Funsworth Paranoiac Bay Area SprawlRegistered User regular
    Cobalt60 wrote: »
    Oh god. I know we really shouldn't be stalking the TV show thread but...
    Showthread wrote:
    I like how Robb is finally doing what I have been screaming at him to do since the battle of the Blackwater by attacking Casterly Rock. Why it took him this long to realize it is beyond me. It seems especially dumb now that we've learned waiting around caused the Karstarks to abandon him. Just feeling especially smug that I called this (and Davos being alive, although I'm too lazy to quote the relevant posts) ages ago. smugface

    edit: And no I haven't read the books, only book one and that was after I watched the episodes.

    Here's my new future prediction (spoilered since I'm so damn scary accurate)
    The White Walkers are going to bring down the wall when they cross it, either by explodey magic or ritual or some kind of giant wooly mammoth ice Kaiju. I mean, I don't see them climbing it or politely waiting in line to use the elevator/passage way's. Either way the wall is getting seriously fucked up in some fashion.. and I imagine most of the remaining Night's Watch will die along with it.

    EPISODE 9 COME TO ME.

    This post has been bookmarked.
  • ShadowhopeShadowhope Registered User regular
    Leigh Butler has been reading one-two chapters per week on her blog, and that's slowly but surely churning through the series.

    Even to read 100 pages per week (I.e, about an episode per week) isn't very tough going. Twenty pages a day while on the commute to work or school. Easy.
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  • a5ehrena5ehren Registered User regular
    So It Goes wrote: »
    mcdermott wrote: »
    I'll go so far as to say that absent the crutch of the books, this actually...isn't a great show.

    It's got great characters, and actors, and moments...but trying to sit and watch it would be excruciating.

    man what? my friends don't need the books, neither did I in season one

    Yeah, Season 1 is what made me read the books. Got the Blu-rays when they were cheap on Amazon due to internet hype, loved it, then bought all the books.
  • nexuscrawlernexuscrawler Registered User regular
    Shadowhope wrote: »
    Leigh Butler has been reading one-two chapters per week on her blog, and that's slowly but surely churning through the series.

    Even to read 100 pages per week (I.e, about an episode per week) isn't very tough going. Twenty pages a day while on the commute to work or school. Easy.

    Its infuriating right now because she stopped like one chapter before the RW
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  • Joe DizzyJoe Dizzy Registered User regular
    I wanted to comment on this, but I feel it's too close to spoilers to do so:
    Vic_Hazard wrote: »
    I feel Sandor is like the comedian in watchmen. He's reflecting what he truly believes about Westerosian society, or humans in general. He's not a simple monster like that other kingsguard dude, he knows right from wrong. He just lives a fucked up life in a fucked up world.

    I feel that way about Littlefinger, actually. Whereas Sandor is just really angry at the fucked-up-ness of the world, Littlefinger just chose to go with the flow.
    ...in accordance to the ancient prophecies.

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  • HakkekageHakkekage Space Whore Academy summa cum laudeRegistered User regular
    Joe Dizzy wrote: »
    I wanted to comment on this, but I feel it's too close to spoilers to do so:
    Vic_Hazard wrote: »
    I feel Sandor is like the comedian in watchmen. He's reflecting what he truly believes about Westerosian society, or humans in general. He's not a simple monster like that other kingsguard dude, he knows right from wrong. He just lives a fucked up life in a fucked up world.

    I feel that way about Littlefinger, actually. Whereas Sandor is just really angry at the fucked-up-ness of the world, Littlefinger just chose to go with the flow.

    Littlefinger is Ozymandias
  • Joe DizzyJoe Dizzy Registered User regular
    I don't think Littlefinger is under any illusions about what he's doing or what he's doing it for.
    ...in accordance to the ancient prophecies.

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  • poshnialloposhniallo Registered User regular
    I don't think we truly know Littlefinger's game yet. We have just seen the edges of it.
    Neal Stephenson wrote:
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  • reVersereVerse The shadow's come to stay Registered User regular
    Littlefinger may not have the world saving ambitions of Ozymandias, but in other ways he fits in just fine.

    The Hound and the Comedian are a pretty good match, as well. They both see their world for it is and as a result don't give a shit.
  • enlightenedbumenlightenedbum Registered User regular
    poshniallo wrote: »
    I don't think we truly know Littlefinger's game yet. We have just seen the edges of it.

    Varys knows.
    My cousin made this game: Gem Pop. It's legitimately fun, particularly for people who enjoy Bejewled, Dr. Mario, Tetris, etc. kinds of games. Only two bucks! If you try it out, PM me with what you think of it.
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