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Neutral [chat] Hotel

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Posts

  • KalkinoKalkino Buttons LondresRegistered User regular
    We actually had or have a scheme that was a dole/income for struggling artists seeking to work on their art. Not sure if it has survived the recession but a few friends were on it for a bit - graphic designers and writers principally.
    Freedom for the Northern Isles!
  • Donkey KongDonkey Kong and a cast of thousands Registered User regular
    edited May 2013
    Abdhyius wrote: »
    supporting the arts is not a substitute for a social safety net and the idea that it is is very strange

    supporting the arts isn't about making artists not starve

    That's more like promoting the arts then. If we start from a place where none of the artists are starving, then you really just need to promote, which is relatively cheap and easy.
    Donkey Kong on
    dkmouthsig.png
  • skippydumptruckskippydumptruck FAK U HODGEHEG Registered User regular
    Arch wrote: »
    The idea that governments shouldn't support the arts seems to hinge on a large assumption, and correct me if I am wrong

    It seems to rely on the fact that there are a non-zero amount of artists who will be able to support themselves through their art

    Feral seems to wish there was a stronger social safety net for artists, and I guess for me when I read that I find the assumption that either all artists need it (which is untrue) or some non-zero amount of artists will be able to make a living off of their art.

    Which to me seems to be saying "we should take care of our artists, even if they can't support themselves through their art"

    But then that makes art into a commercial product, which I think is maybe not the point of art?

    Maybe I don't get the arguments though

    I think the government should support the arts for the same reason it should fund city beautification projects such as parks, green spaces, etc

    but are video games art

    and if so, how much should you tip the developer
  • KageraKagera Registered User regular
    Anyway I await the removal of greed from the human psyche so we can all share and never starve with as much anticipation as the harnessing of cold fusion.
    _J_ wrote:
    If we only allowed pedophiles to be parents, then we would never have to worry about children being left alone, unwatched.
    XBL: Fanatical One AIM: itskagera
  • ArchArch Trust me, I'm a scientist Registered User regular
    Arch wrote: »
    Feral wrote: »
    Kagera wrote: »
    I fundamentally disagree with the idea that we fund the arts 'for fun'. There is a quantifiable benefit in supporting creative works and I am not seriously believing I actually have to say that shit. Apparently humans can become mindless automatons though only thinking in practicality and rationality and I can't wait to see the utopia that blooms from it when you guys figure out how to implement it!

    Meh, I don't think the government should be supporting the arts. I don't think that's really the government's role.

    I see it as a poor substitute for a decent social safety net.

    Artists shouldn't have to face starvation and homelessness - but neither should anybody else.

    I guess I just don't see these two things as mutually exclusive

    He's not saying they're mutually exclusive. He's saying supporting the arts is a subset of supporting everyone, and we should be supporting everyone.

    I guess I take "supporting the arts" to mean "funding spectacular works of art" the same way I take "supporting the sciences" to mean "supporting new and innovative research"

    And those things would, I hope, continue even if we provided support at a baseline for the entire population
  • GooeyGooey Registered User regular
    the idea that the government should support the arts is hilarious
    919UOwT.png
  • AbdhyiusAbdhyius Registered User regular
    actually let's go back to that bit

    does people have citations about the space boner thing

    because that is important
    xlh6c3.png
  • ArchArch Trust me, I'm a scientist Registered User regular
    There is making sure people are comfortable in their life, and will not die in the streets of hunger and there is rewarding human innovation and creativity
  • Solomaxwell6Solomaxwell6 Registered User regular
    spool32 wrote: »
    Irond Will wrote: »
    Kagera wrote: »
    Also 'prestige' shit like landing on the moon does things for humanity other than concrete practicals it spurs creativity and wonder and shit pragmatism never does.

    really?

    like what?

    what did a moon landing do for humanity that, say, 300 hoover dams wouldn't?

    300 Hoovber dams would ruin the world's landscape what kind of environmentalist are you.

    He's not saying he'd use 300 Hoover dams to place in rivers for hydroelectric power.

    He's saying build 300 Hoover dams in the middle of the desert as a massive public works project. Unemployment ended!
  • Donkey KongDonkey Kong and a cast of thousands Registered User regular
    Arch wrote: »
    The idea that governments shouldn't support the arts seems to hinge on a large assumption, and correct me if I am wrong

    It seems to rely on the fact that there are a non-zero amount of artists who will be able to support themselves through their art

    Feral seems to wish there was a stronger social safety net for artists, and I guess for me when I read that I find the assumption that either all artists need it (which is untrue) or some non-zero amount of artists will be able to make a living off of their art.

    Which to me seems to be saying "we should take care of our artists, even if they can't support themselves through their art"

    But then that makes art into a commercial product, which I think is maybe not the point of art?

    Maybe I don't get the arguments though

    I think the government should support the arts for the same reason it should fund city beautification projects such as parks, green spaces, etc

    but are video games art

    and if so, how much should you tip the developer

    Is the strong female protagonist empowering women and breaking down stereotypes or pandering to men and reinforcing them?
    dkmouthsig.png
  • AManFromEarthAManFromEarth Their ideas are old and their ideas are bad. Risk is our business.Registered User regular
    "support the arts" doesn't just mean "pay artists so they don't have to get real jobs"

    we are all clear on that point, yes?
    Lh96QHG.png
  • ArchArch Trust me, I'm a scientist Registered User regular
    "support the arts" doesn't just mean "pay artists so they don't have to get real jobs"

    we are all clear on that point, yes?

    brofist
  • AbdhyiusAbdhyius Registered User regular
    Like I'm not saying that the government should just be cutting George RR Martin a check every week, but "supporting the arts" and stuff is kind of a thing they've always done so I don't think "that's not the government's role" is totally accurate. The government, as an extension of The People, has a duty to facilitate (preemptive No, Not Controlling and Censoring) cultivation of culture to at least a small extent.

    Hell, it's in the constitution.

    or in a simpler way, the people has deemed that it is in their best interests to have it this way since they like culture and shit.
    xlh6c3.png
  • FeralFeral Who needs a medical license when you've got style? Registered User regular
    "support the arts" doesn't just mean "pay artists so they don't have to get real jobs"

    we are all clear on that point, yes?

    No.
    I am comforted by Richard Dawkins’ theory of memes. Those are mental units: thoughts, ideas, gestures, notions, songs, beliefs, rhymes, ideals, teachings, sayings, phrases, clichés that move from mind to mind as genes move from body to body. After a lifetime of writing, teaching, broadcasting and telling too many jokes, I will leave behind more memes than many. They will all also eventually die, but so it goes. - Roger Ebert, I Do Not Fear Death
  • syndalissyndalis Aballah Can Tah Advancing the Human ConditionRegistered User regular
    Our social safety net needs to be comfortable enough for people to live without fear of dying to illness, losing a roof over their head, utilities or internet, or going hungry.

    It should not be a place you want to be though.

    I would rather we pay talented artists well for state sponsored projects than say that artists should just rely on welfare until they are George RR Martin / Stephen King / Kinkade. It costs so little and the end results of having statues / paintings / compositions and other assorted works of art are a net positive to society.

    I am glad we do not live in a bleak gray hellscape, and a large part of the reason why is because governments, churches and royalty have paid artists to make pretty things for them.
    meat.jpg
  • CorehealerCorehealer The Apothecary Your Dark Descent FriendRegistered User regular
    Arts funding aside, we can all agree a better social safety net is always needed and is a good thing.
    2ItqRJ7.jpgSteam/Origin/PSN: Corehealer / Core's Streamtastical Livestream (Streaming Wildstar Beta later this year).
  • AbdhyiusAbdhyius Registered User regular
    Arch wrote: »
    Feral wrote: »
    Kagera wrote: »
    I fundamentally disagree with the idea that we fund the arts 'for fun'. There is a quantifiable benefit in supporting creative works and I am not seriously believing I actually have to say that shit. Apparently humans can become mindless automatons though only thinking in practicality and rationality and I can't wait to see the utopia that blooms from it when you guys figure out how to implement it!

    Meh, I don't think the government should be supporting the arts. I don't think that's really the government's role.

    I see it as a poor substitute for a decent social safety net.

    Artists shouldn't have to face starvation and homelessness - but neither should anybody else.

    I guess I just don't see these two things as mutually exclusive

    He's not saying they're mutually exclusive. He's saying supporting the arts is a subset of supporting everyone, and we should be supporting everyone.

    supporting the arts isn't the same thing as supporting the artists!

    like, if a starving artist went to get some welfare here he would be required to be looking for a job too - and take any job that they found for him

    because the point of welfare is to remedy the "starving" part, not to make it easier to live off being an artist!
    xlh6c3.png
  • Donkey KongDonkey Kong and a cast of thousands Registered User regular
    "support the arts" doesn't just mean "pay artists so they don't have to get real jobs"

    we are all clear on that point, yes?

    I think that's clear, but I think it's important to note that throwing a festival every once in a while or providing permission/materials for larger public works is all that expensive or a tough sell to the public if it doesn't also come with paying a living wage to everyone involved.
    dkmouthsig.png
  • TL DRTL DR Registered User regular
    Gooey wrote: »
    the idea that the government should support the arts is hilarious

    Word. At this point you should be able to draw a living wage whether you do anything or not. Art is purely supplementary :bz
    eokNV.jpg
  • TavTav Registered User regular
    Hamurabi wrote: »
    Tav wrote: »
    Okay, i'll go do my workout soon...

    I'm gonna add jumping jacks to my work-out routine today...

    Is... is that a good idea?

    lift weights instead

    Yeah 21st.

    Be a Man.

    lifting is better for you

    and you look less stupid while doing it

    win win
  • GooeyGooey Registered User regular
    Corehealer wrote: »
    Arts funding aside, we can all agree a better social safety net is always needed and is a good thing.

    no
    919UOwT.png
  • ArchArch Trust me, I'm a scientist Registered User regular
    syndalis wrote: »
    Our social safety net needs to be comfortable enough for people to live without fear of dying to illness, losing a roof over their head, utilities or internet, or going hungry.

    It should not be a place you want to be though.

    I would rather we pay talented artists well for state sponsored projects than say that artists should just rely on welfare until they are George RR Martin / Stephen King / Kinkade. It costs so little and the end results of having statues / paintings / compositions and other assorted works of art are a net positive to society.

    I am glad we do not live in a bleak gray hellscape, and a large part of the reason why is because governments, churches and royalty have paid artists to make pretty things for them.

    Dis mothafucka right here
  • KageraKagera Registered User regular
    Maybe I'm not doing what you think I'm doing feral because I never advocated for a cutting of social safety funds or even opposed an increase in funding unlike you or others were shitting on NASA and the arts? Maybe that's why?
    _J_ wrote:
    If we only allowed pedophiles to be parents, then we would never have to worry about children being left alone, unwatched.
    XBL: Fanatical One AIM: itskagera
  • TL DRTL DR Registered User regular
    You can jumping jack and lift weight

    weights first, though. nobody ever dropped 100 lbs on their throat fucking up their form during jumping jacks
    eokNV.jpg
  • ArchArch Trust me, I'm a scientist Registered User regular
    Gooey wrote: »
    Corehealer wrote: »
    Arts funding aside, we can all agree a better social safety net is always needed and is a good thing.

    no

    oh gooby 8->
  • japanjapan Registered User regular
    edited May 2013
    Abdhyius wrote: »
    supporting the arts isn't the same thing as supporting the artists!

    It can be, albeit at a remove.

    In that by supporting the arts generally by funding venues, performances, etc. an industry which supports a number of people is caused to exist when it may not otherwise.
    japan on
  • KageraKagera Registered User regular
    Like I distinctly remember never saying 'bah that bread meant for starving kids should be used for rocket fuel'.

    I'm pretty sure I would recall that fucking shit.
    _J_ wrote:
    If we only allowed pedophiles to be parents, then we would never have to worry about children being left alone, unwatched.
    XBL: Fanatical One AIM: itskagera
  • Irond WillIrond Will Super Moderator, Moderator mod
    Kagera wrote: »
    I fundamentally disagree with the idea that we fund the arts 'for fun'. There is a quantifiable benefit in supporting creative works and I am not seriously believing I actually have to say that shit. Apparently humans can become mindless automatons though only thinking in practicality and rationality and I can't wait to see the utopia that blooms from it when you guys figure out how to implement it!

    so the nea is really cheap and i don't really care one way or another whether it gets funded

    i can't really think of a place where the nea has had an impact on my life, personally

    like, i know mapplethorpe did some nea stuff, but he was already a famous, self-sufficient artist by that point anyhow and didn't really need nea money

    also, nea is really biased towards classical and non-populist artwork in the us. we shit on the canadian govenrment bankrolling nickelback and avril levigne but they hit a lot more ears than whatever the nea funds.
  • FeralFeral Who needs a medical license when you've got style? Registered User regular
    Kagera wrote: »
    Maybe I'm not doing what you think I'm doing feral because I never advocated for a cutting of social safety funds or even opposed an increase in funding unlike you or others were shitting on NASA and the arts? Maybe that's why?

    I was shitting specifically on Josh Lyman's terrible argument in that awful West Wing clip.
    I am comforted by Richard Dawkins’ theory of memes. Those are mental units: thoughts, ideas, gestures, notions, songs, beliefs, rhymes, ideals, teachings, sayings, phrases, clichés that move from mind to mind as genes move from body to body. After a lifetime of writing, teaching, broadcasting and telling too many jokes, I will leave behind more memes than many. They will all also eventually die, but so it goes. - Roger Ebert, I Do Not Fear Death
  • Donkey KongDonkey Kong and a cast of thousands Registered User regular
    I think Feral's idea is social safety net as a baseline for living, right? It's not welfare it's something everyone gets no matter what? I don't know.

    I support the arts leave me alone NPR.
    dkmouthsig.png
  • RMS OceanicRMS Oceanic Registered User regular
    Corehealer wrote: »
    Arts funding aside, we can all agree a better social safety net is always needed and is a good thing.

    But what if 0.01% of those on benefits receive more money than they would while employed? We can't take that chance!
  • AbdhyiusAbdhyius Registered User regular
    Abdhyius wrote: »
    supporting the arts is not a substitute for a social safety net and the idea that it is is very strange

    supporting the arts isn't about making artists not starve

    That's more like promoting the arts then. If we start from a place where none of the artists are starving, then you really just need to promote, which is relatively cheap and easy.

    we (through the state) straight give money to artists just as a hey keep doing that you're being rad.

    if you're very good you might be so lucky as to live in the state's official honorary residence for artists, free of charge.

    reason we do this is because... well, because we always have been? It's been just one of those things governments do for a very long time now.
    xlh6c3.png
  • ArchArch Trust me, I'm a scientist Registered User regular
  • KageraKagera Registered User regular
    Feral wrote: »
    Kagera wrote: »
    Maybe I'm not doing what you think I'm doing feral because I never advocated for a cutting of social safety funds or even opposed an increase in funding unlike you or others were shitting on NASA and the arts? Maybe that's why?

    I was shitting specifically on Josh Lyman's terrible argument in that awful West Wing clip.

    Oh.

    Okay then my mistake!
    _J_ wrote:
    If we only allowed pedophiles to be parents, then we would never have to worry about children being left alone, unwatched.
    XBL: Fanatical One AIM: itskagera
  • AbdhyiusAbdhyius Registered User regular
    Gooey wrote: »
    Corehealer wrote: »
    Arts funding aside, we can all agree a better social safety net is always needed and is a good thing.

    no

    boo!
    xlh6c3.png
  • Irond WillIrond Will Super Moderator, Moderator mod
    Elldren wrote: »
    Dams also wouldn't stop monsoons

    therefore not a great way to control flooding in Cambodia

    just saying

    i thought that dams are exactly how to mitigate seasonal flooding from things like monsoons.

    didn't the nile do this?

    and the ganges?

    and the yangtse?

    and the upper mississippi?
  • AbdhyiusAbdhyius Registered User regular
    japan wrote: »
    Abdhyius wrote: »
    supporting the arts isn't the same thing as supporting the artists!

    It can be, albeit at a remove.

    In that by supporting the arts generally by funding venues, performances, etc. an industry which supports a number of people is caused to exist when it may not otherwise.

    yeah and it is, literally, supporting the artists, but like, the artists as artists and not just as people. Which is the difference between it and social security. Which I still think are absurd things to compare.
    xlh6c3.png
  • FeralFeral Who needs a medical license when you've got style? Registered User regular
    I think Feral's idea is social safety net as a baseline for living, right? It's not welfare it's something everyone gets no matter what? I don't know.

    I support the arts leave me alone NPR.

    I support a basic guaranteed income, yeah.

    Or, if we don't want to give the poors cash money because somebody is afraid they'll spend it on bubble gum and crack, then guaranteed housing, food, and medical care.
    I am comforted by Richard Dawkins’ theory of memes. Those are mental units: thoughts, ideas, gestures, notions, songs, beliefs, rhymes, ideals, teachings, sayings, phrases, clichés that move from mind to mind as genes move from body to body. After a lifetime of writing, teaching, broadcasting and telling too many jokes, I will leave behind more memes than many. They will all also eventually die, but so it goes. - Roger Ebert, I Do Not Fear Death
This discussion has been closed.